A nice English Duplex, 1812?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Oct 23, 2017.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I wasn’t going to buy anymore movements but this Duplex caught my eye. I was not sure what it is but Graham pointed out to me the “Spikey bits” in the side view; I was then hooked. The good thing is that I don’t think anyone else had twigged what it was; thank you Graham. It is not often that you get the full set of original Hands. It has a broken Hinge where some fool has twisted the Gold Case off. I am not sure what to do about the Dial I probably have a Nice one somewhere. Anyone know this Maker-Seller? I am uncertain if “1812” is the Date or a Serial Number? I lightened up the Spikey bits in 4a. Regards Ray

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 4a.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That should clean up well. Those hands alone are worth whatever you paid for it. Now you'll have to wait and see whether it has a ruby staff.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #3 Omexa, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    Hi Graham, you are right I am very impressed with the Hands; it is very rare that you get a movement with the original Hands; maybe solid Gold; it is strange that they never went into the melting pot? I have a lot of hinges. I have a Nice American Solid Gold Case that this may fit into; I hope. The seller did not give any dimensions. What about the 1812 Number? Serial Number or Date? If it is the Date maybe some thing to do with the War in America? Regards Ray
     
  4. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, this movement came from Kentucky.
    Kentucky in the War of 1812
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    During the War of 1812, Kentucky supplied numerous troops and supplies to the war effort. Because Kentucky did not have to commit manpower to defending fortifications, most Kentucky troops campaigned actively against the enemy. This led to Kentucky seeing more battle casualties than all other states combined. Who knows:???: Regards Ray
     
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Most likely to be the serial number when engraved here, but dates are unusual although not unknown.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  6. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Coincidence or not, the figures on the back plate cannot, I think, be far from the year of manufacture. My McCabe duplex of about 1810 (which is still clanking vigorously on my desk) has a very similar layout. The brass (rather than steel) 'gallows' for the hairspring is rather unusual.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Oliver , my thoughts as well.
    Regards Ray
     
  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Oliver,

    Barraud produced 'all-brass' movements, with balances as well as the gallows stud in brass, as here. 1812 does seem to be a reasonable date for this.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I wonder if this was made by Barraud for Seller Samuel Paterson of Edinburgh? I can't find a "Samuel Paterson of Edinburgh" anywhere in my searches? Regards Ray
     
  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #10 Omexa, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    Samuel Paterson Book Auctioneer, in Edinburgh was a witness in a Sedition trial in 1793 and was a Political activist. He had ties to America in Philadelphia (Hamilton.) before and after 1812 and was involved in smuggling Artisan workers into America. I am starting to think that this movement was in his own personal Pocket Watch. If this is true another Gold Thief has destroyed an important item of American History. upload_2017-10-25_2-37-13.png
     
  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #11 Omexa, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    Hi, I have to alter a little bit of the previous post, a correction
    The Burr–Hamilton duel was fought between prominent American politicians Aaron Burr, the sitting Vice President of the United States, and Alexander Hamilton, the former Secretary of the Treasury, at Weehawken, New Jersey on July 11, 1804.[1] The duel was the culmination of a long and bitter rivalry between the two men. Burr shot and mortally wounded Hamilton, who was carried to the home of William Bayard, where he died the next day.
    Burr–Hamilton duel
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Regards Ray
     
  12. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, this is all based on the assumption that the Book Auctioneer Samuel Paterson who also sold in London owned this movement; but it is all starting to add up. Painting of Alexander Hamilton. Regards Ray

    1024px-Alexander_Hamilton_portrait_by_John_Trumbull_1806.jpg
     
  13. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #13 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    Ray I have been thinking should I say anything about your very nice duplex watch-and the hands are truly very very nice-I might add it is also nice when people agree with
    your assesment of the date and movement, but if this watch was made in 1830-35 would the above stand up. I think its time to slow things down and take another look at this watch.
    1812 is 99.9% the serial number. If you look at Jerry Freedman´s thread "JR Arnold Chas Frodsham" you will see a watch I posted-the watch is typical of Clerkenwell watches of the
    late 1820´s early 1830´s. The name on the watch could have any well known London retailor of that period-Arnold, Barraud, Barwise, Brockbank, Earnshaw Jr,, J.Cragg and so on these same people would have been asked by retailors in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, or Lock Ness to send them a nice watch they could make money on-they too had rich clientele. Below is another watch of that peiod hallmarked 1830
    IMG_4099.JPG IMG_4097.JPG
     
  14. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    IMG_4096.JPG IMG_4095.JPG

    Sorry about the pics I had not loged in. You can see them now though.
     
  15. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Ray I have been thinking should I say anything about your very nice duplex watch-and the hands are truly very very nice-I might add it is also nice when people agree with
    your assesment of the date and movement, but if this watch was made in 1830-35 would the above stand up. I think its time to slow things down and take another look at this watch.
    1812 is 99.9% the serial number. If you look at Jerry Freedman´s thread "JR Arnold Chas Frodsham" you will see a watch I posted-the watch is typical of Clerkenwell watches of the
    late 1820´s early 1830´s. The name on the watch could have any wellknown London retailor of that period-Arnold, Barraud, Barwise, Brockbank, Earnshaw Jr,, J.Cragg and so on these same people would have been asked by retailors in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, or Lock Ness to send them a nice watch they could make money on-the too had rich clientele. Below is another watch of that peiod hallmarked 1830
    View attachment 360165 View attachment 360166
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #16 Omexa, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    Hi Allan, I am sort of confused about what point you are making; these movements are as different as Chalk and Cheese? I am sorry but I don't think that the 1812 is 99.9% the serial number; I have a few Pocket Watches with the Date on the movement. There are too many clues to Samuel Paterson the Book Auctioneer. I have not been able to find a Seller in Edinburgh named Samuel Paterson who sold Pocket Watches. See if you can find one I would very much appreciate it. By the way thanks for the Case which has not arrived yet. This movement was not made in 1830-35. I have found a D A Paterson at 31 Leven Street, Edinburgh. Who have long since gone. I may be wrong about Samuel Paterson the Book Auctioneer. Regards Ray
     
  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray, I too looked for Samuel Paterson before i wrote to you Loomes of course, clockmakers & Watchmakersf Scotland by Donald Whyte-John Smiths book Old Scotosh clockmakers, britten,Baillie-no SP. I do hope you are right-but I still think you should take a deep breath. No need to thank me for the case I just hope it finds a good home.

    Keep smiling Blue,

    Allan.
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Allan, being University educated as a Sociologist I do tend to look into things rather deeply and sometimes go off track. But there is no need to take a deep breath as all my research is unemotional. Regards Ray
     
  19. PapaLouies

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    Hi Ray,

    Could not the regulator and index scale on the balance cock be a clue to the date of the watch?

    Regards, PL
     
  20. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi PL, Oliver Mundy who I have been getting information from for many years writes this:
    Regards Ray
     
  21. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray- i am just an uneducated heathen-I do try though-even tho_Oough some would say to hard.:rolleyes: I read Olivers thread he seems a very nice chap.regards, Allan.
     
  22. PapaLouies

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    Maybe Oliver would post a photo of his McCabe duplex for comparison.

    Regards, PL
     
  23. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi PL, a good idea
    Hi I am almost convinced that my movement was made by Barraud; at this time c1812 the Serial Numbers were in the 8,000's. The photo is I think from David Penney's Archives. Regards Ray

    Barraud Duplex.PNG
     
  24. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Ray - I just checked the duplex movements on David's site - the nearest I could find was BROCKBANKS, London. No 6584 described as follows:

    Lovely Duplex movement by this most famous firm, circa 1820

    Well made capped fullplate fusee movement with Harrison's going fusee (maintaining power), with cap jewels on balance (diamond) and escape, and with gilt stud and index. Duplex escapement retaining the ruby roller. Gilt balance with poising screws, spiral balance spring with index on the cock table showing through the cap. Perfect one-piece signed enamel dial. 46 mm diameter, 13 mm deep, not including centre arbor.

    Brothers John & Myles Brockbank, one of London’s leading watch and chronometer makers of the period.

    So as Graham mentioned at the top possibly a ruby roller?

    John
     
  25. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Since Barraud would have bought in the frame, perhaps we should be looking for a common link via the frame maker rather than a London watch house?

    [Edit]: Having seen John's link to that Brockbanks, I agree that there is a very strong resemblance.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  26. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Graham - I'm sure you are right, but what do you think the chances are of finding stamps on a frame from ~1820? When I just looked through David's archive it did appear that there was a consistency in design to the individual watch houses, but these could easily be down to the finishing and the number of frame makers may have been smaller.

    Regards

    John
     
  27. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi John, the Brockbanks does look very like my movement but with a later version Balance Wheel with Balance Screws.
    We will find out when I receive it. Thanks all for your input. Regards Ray
     
  28. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I Ray, I knew I had one cased somewhere. This is a early STR by James Watson Hallmarked London 1823. Regards Allan. IMG_4095.JPG IMG_4096.JPG IMG_4095.JPG IMG_4096.JPG IMG_4101.JPG IMG_4106.JPG IMG_4103.JPG
     
  29. Allan C. Purcell

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    #29 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 25, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
    Sorry Ray the first four are in there by mistake- I will get it right one of these days. Allan
    279584-fa91884a600853729ae413fb325e6f2d.jpg
    279585-42291546c471cdc3fb7705cd2d4d2497.jpg

    IMG_4102.JPG IMG_4105.JPG
     
  30. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Herewith as requested are some pictures of McCabe 6774. I may add that the layout of the maintaining-power click is exactly the same as in Ray's movement, although I have not got any images of this. Note also the single small capped jewel.

    I must apologise for giving one picture twice. I am a little mystified by the new software at present.

    Oliver Mundy.
    mccabe_side_02.jpg mccabe_side_01.jpg mccabe_back_01.jpg

    mccabe_back_01.jpg
     
  31. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Well so far the Brockbanks found by John is the closest but with an updated Balance Wheel with Balance Screws. Photo from David Penney's Archive. Regards Ray

    brockbanks-london-no-6584  MOVEMENT.jpg
     
  32. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I forgot to mention that I got this for US$67.00. I have just been looking at my other "Will Cribb", Ruby Duplex which I got for US$23.50. It has been running all night. Regards Ray
     
  33. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #33 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 26, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
    Hi Ray-I thought it might help if a Samuel Paterson watchmaker could be found?? So for exercise I have started to look for one.
    In John Smiths book "old Scottish Clockmakers from 1453 to 1850."
    Smith has the following,
    Paterson, Alexander 1814-Leith- (Leith is the dock area of Edinburgh- the queens old ship Brittania is parked there).
    Paterson, James Edinburgh 1780-1825. (Lot of information on him in the book)
    Paterson, John North Leith 1807. (Free of the Hammermen in 1807-Hammermen was like the clockmakers Company in Scotland).
    Paterson Patrick Edinburgh 1728
    Paterson, Walter Edinburgh 1744
    Paterson William Edingurgh 1766-74
    There were also Paterson´s in Glasgow, Banff, and Aberdeen-So the name was not unknown in Scotland.

    Brian Loomes goes one step further in that he includes the names Pattison-Patterson/Pattenson. Though no Samuel.

    It would of course help if I could find a book on Jews in Edinburgh or Scotland-So that is my next search-I might then be able to find a son
    from the above whos name is Samuel. I found this of great help when reading The Jews of Manchester and Liverpool. The famous firm H.Samuel of Manchester
    Started in Liverpool, like many others.

    It´s a pity that your watch movement and that of Olivers are not in their cases-I really would like to know when this type of cock was first used, I know I have a Barwise like that too
    but was unable to find it yesturday-could be in the bank.Another like it i posted on "Early English Table Rollers" a no name watch, I could put on if you cannot find it Ray? HM 1826.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  34. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Ray - I have been digging into the Scottish archives and I think I have identified your Samuel Paterson which links into your previous post.

    Samuel is listed as a merchant in 1773 - 1775 located in Luckenbooths, at the same address he is described as a cotton merchant in 1784. 1790 to 1800 reverts to just merchant. In 1805 at the same address he is joined by James Paterson, described as a watch maker, and the business is described as Samuel Paterson & Co. In !810 we have Samuel Paterson & Co, merchants, Luckenbooths House, head of Bank Street. I think this is the year he retired as forward in 1811 to 1813 he his listed as Samuel Paterson esq. From that date forward I cannot find reference to a Samuel Paterson in directories up to 1875 - when I halted my search. My guess is that this just might have been a watch that started life about the time Samuel left the business ~1810!!!

    Suggest you use Google Earth which will give you a visual on the locations in the centre of Edinburgh.

    Enjoy

    John
     
  35. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi John Nice piece of work as usual-Though I think your James Paterson is not the right man,
    I quote from John Smith´s book.
    "James Paterson Edinburgh 1789-1825.
    Bound apprectice to James Howden, 20th July 1789, compeard !st. February 1806 and presented his eassay; a watch movment begun, made, and finnished in his own shop, in prints his friends and the public that having been near fifteen years with Mr. Jamesesence
    of James Howden, Landlord, Robert Green, John Sibbold, and Laurence Dalgleish essay masters as they declared-E II Records.

    James Paterson acquaints is friends and the public that having been near fifteen years with Mr. James Howden learning and practising the art of watch and clockmaking,
    he as now opened a shop for himself at the foot of Lawnmarket, North Side, where, by attention to business, he hopes to attain a share of public favour. A variety of fashionable
    clocks and watches always on hand. Watches and clocks cleaned and repaired upon moderate terms- Orders from the country carefully attendedto -Edinburgh Evening Courant,
    2nd. June 1804.

    It goes on-Paterson James, watch and clock maker, at the sign of the gilded watch, foot of the Lawn market, north side, opposite the City Guard, greatful
    for past favours, informs his friends and the public that he has always on hand a good stock of eight-day clocks in mahogany and wainscot cases; also a great variety of watches in Gold Silver, and gilt cases, which he can recommend as good and good anduseful articles. As it is acknowlegedged by every one that no person can be aproper judge of a watch but those who have been bred to and are wormen and understand the business, J.P. being himself a workman, and having a proper knowledge of the trade, flatters himself that a discerning public will see the advantage of and security that they have in purchasing from such as are judges of what they recommend. Clocks and watches of every descrition cleaned and repaired in the best manner and on moderate terms-Edinburgh Evening Courant, 9th April 1809.

    I dont think this agrees with the above. Plus the Samuel Paterson Ray is looking for is book worm, not a cotten merchant.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  36. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Allan - more than happy to leave it for Ray to decide ....

    However, there is no other Samuel Paterson listed in the Edinburgh PO directories between 1773 & 1875 that I can find. For the most of the entries this Samuel is simply described as a merchant and I suspect he was a general merchant of some standing. he may have sold books - who knows? I didn't search for James - I simply noted that there was a James Paterson, a watch maker, at the same address in 1805 - who he was and what, if any, relationship he had to Samuel, I did not find or research.

    John
     
  37. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    #37 John Matthews, Oct 26, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
    Ray/Allan here is a hypothesis based upon close encounters ...

    The picture below, from Google Earth probably shows what were the premises of Samuel and James.

    Lawnmarket is the road running up from right to left and the north side is facing you in the picture, where James opened his shop ~1805. Samuel Paterson & Co were located at Luckenbooth - in the 1810 directory this is expanded to Luckenbooth's House at the head of Bank Street. The head of Bank Street is I assume the top of the street - the bus is almost at the top, i.e. where it intersects with Lawnmarket. Not sure which side of the road, but it could be the Tavern on the corner. If it is ... well the foot of Lawnmarket is the top of Bank Street - in that case it would be QED.

    You need someone familiar with Edinburgh to confirm or deny.

    So my hypothesis would be that the young James, have been financial supported through his training by his rich merchant relative, made a retirement watch and presented it to Samuel Paterson - pure speculation of course, but a nice story.

    More likely James or some other maker was commissioned to make watches for Samuel who had his name engraved on them .....

    That's as far as I can take it -> over to you Ray

    John

    Samuel & James Paterson.JPG
     
  38. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    John- Luckenbooths??Thats a strange same address- Plus James Paterson was still an apprentice then 1805. Lets face it there are hundreds of unrecorded
    Watch-come retailers who are not recorded in the books or documents if it comes to that.

    Allan.

    PS: I have just read the new thread by John, Ray.I wait on your oppinion?
     
  39. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Well I have enlisted the aid of the BBC and Dr Who and I am off in the TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimension In Space) in the next few days. Nothing like first hand information; thank you all for your research; the plot thickens. Photo from Wikipedia. Regards Ray

    Tardis_BBC_Television_Center.jpg
     
  40. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I give up-is John going with?

    Allan.
     
  41. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Thank you Allan and John for all the time you have put into research on this movement.
    I will have to do more research; one thing is that from the above quote, Samuel Paterson is not a Watchmaker and James Paterson is! It is likely that James Paterson is a relative and Samuel Paterson has taken him in and helped him get established. I will now try to search Paterson Edinburgh, Family trees. I do now think it likely that James Paterson made a Pocket Watch for Samuel Paterson to thank him for his help? Regards Ray
     
  42. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Originally, the 'Luckenbooths' (Scots for 'locking booths', i.e. lockable retail units) were a row of small shops with apartments above, built in the middle of the High Street (the main east-west road through the old town) on the north side of St. Giles's Cathedral, which still stands on the southern side of that street a few hundred yards east of the entrance to Bank Street (to the right of the scene shown in John's photograph). Lawnmarket is a continuation of the western end of High Street. The original Luckenbooths were demolished in 1802, so that Samuel Paterson must then have moved from there to the premises at the Lawnmarket end of Bank Street whose name commemorated the vanished units.

    Incidentally (this has nothing to do with John's posting but relates to a remark of Allan's), I do not think that 'Samuel' as a forename has any particularly Jewish connotation; it was a common given name in Britain at least from Elizabethan times onwards. (The surname 'Samuel' is another matter altogether.) For example, Dr. Samuel Johnson was not a Jew. 'Paterson' is a thoroughly Scots name.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  43. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Oliver - Thank-you, that is very helpful. Your knowledge of the history of Edinburgh has provided an explanation of the distinction between 'Luckenbooths' given as the earlier address and Lockenbooths House for the 1810 address. A distinction which had completely passed me by.

    I attach an expanded aerial view from Google earth to put Oliver's description into context.

    John

    Luckenbooths, Edinburgh.JPG
     
  44. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi John, Oliver and Allan, I am rather intrigued by the very early buildings in the photo, it is just missing the horse traffic. In comparison to Darwin there are not many older buildings left from previous times after Darwin was destroyed by Cyclone Tracy. Cyclone Tracy was a tropical cyclone that from Christmas Eve to Christmas Day, 1974, devastated the city of Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia. Samuel Paterson has developed into an interesting research project. Regards Ray

    943159-cyclone-tracy-part-2-main-image.jpg
     
  45. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,432
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    Hi, a bit more about Samuel Paterson, the Blockade Breaker. A very interesting Scotsman! Regards Ray

    Artisans.PNG
     
  46. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,432
    8
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    Hi, a bit more about Samuel Paterson, the Blockade Breaker. A very interesting Scotsman! He had a lot to do with early America. Regards Ray

    More Information about Samuel Paterson 1.PNG Part 2.PNG Part 3.PNG Benjamin Franklin and the Invention of Micro finance.PNG
     
  47. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,432
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    Hi, at the moment I am in a hard place trying to find out why FedEx gave my parcel to Australia Post deliver. The Parcel was sent by eBay's Global Shipping Program and so far I have not received it. When I checked the Tracking Number it indicated "Delivered", and did not have any information where? So I got onto FedEx and asked them where was it delivered? A lot of waffling later and a few angry phone calls, I find out it was delivered to Australia Post in Sydney on the 7th day/11/2017. I asked FedEx what is the Australia Post Tracking number. FedEx did not have it, so I asked how am I supposed to find out where it is? Today I received from FedEx an Australia Post Tracking Number, it indicated it would be delivered on the 9th day /11/2017. This is impossible, from Sydney to Darwin in 2 days? I just hope it is not lost? I will never buy anything that uses the Global Shipping Program again, and FedEx are out too. Regards Ray
     
  48. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
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    Germany
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    Hi Ray I had this problem once, it turned out my packet was with the customs-I then had to collect it myself and pay VAT. Hope this does not happen to you.

    Allan.
     
  49. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
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    Hi Allan, I just received an email from Australia (Slow) Post that it is expected to be delivered tomorrow. I will believe it when it arrives. Regards Ray
     
  50. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
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    Hi Allan, in Australia if it is under AU$1000.00 nothing to pay; the Government are trying to change that. Regards Ray
     
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