A new old JUF for my collection

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by DieteR, Oct 20, 2017.

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  1. DieteR

    DieteR Registered User

    Sep 18, 2008
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    Hello

    Here are the photos of another clock, I also bought on Sunday at RIKKETIK market in the Netherlands.

    I saw a photo of this clock years ago and i thought, it would like, to own it.
    Now it is part of my collection

    The clock is, as you can see, in a really good condition.

    The pendulum is marked with DRGM No. 403658.

    Details and SNo. can be seen in the photos.

    DieteR

    JUF 171015 F 01.JPG JUF 171015 F 02.JPG JUF 171015 F 03.JPG JUF 171015 F 04.JPG JUF 171015 F 05.JPG JUF 171015 F 06.JPG
     
  2. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I really like the scrolled pillars on either side of the dial...really frames the dial. Appears to be a JUF, plate 1439. There are some posts on the forum that mention the DRGM number as being dated in the 1911 to 1915 range.

    Dating Kundo Anniversary Clock plus Pendulum

    Kurt
     
  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Very nice!

    JUF made some interesting designs. I don't think we had the same variety here in the States.

    Eric
     
  4. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Dieter, thanks for posting your JUF clock info and photos. Based on the serial number the movement was made about April-May 1911. As Kurt posted it has Plate 1439, could you confirm if there is any letter at the lower left corner of the back plate? The photo is blurry and it does not appear there is a letter but will appreciate your confirmation.

    I believe this is a marriage, with the JUF movement and pendulum installed in the case made for a Kienzle Special Calendar model. The pediment and twist rods are identical to those on several of the Kienzle clocks I have documented. Here are some photos for comparison:

    124206 Dial.jpg 124206 Front.jpg 126621 Front-Dome.jpg

    The dial and clock to the left are missing the special arc device at the top of the dial as seen in the third photo. However, it appears there is no question the case originally was made for the Kienzle calendar. It does make a very interesting and attractive clock but I don't think it was put together by JUF.

    The DRGM 403658 was for the "Arrow" 4-Ball pendulum and was granted November 12, 1909. However, on February 14, 1911 this protection was amended by DRGM 455721 which describes pendulum No. 39 4-Ball that you have with your clock. That amendment should have extended JUF's protection by 15 months to early 1917, however that evidently didn't happen since both Kienzle and GB introduced their adjustable 4-Ball pendulum designs in December 1915 and January 1916 respectively, indicating that the original DRGM expiry date of November 11, 1915 was in effect.

    My data show that the "Arrow" pendulum was used for only one year, being replaced by pendulum No. 39 starting about September 1910. This is before the amended DRGM was granted, however the original DRGM 403658 was stamped on all these, so it is possible that the application was filed in September 1910 for the new design and JUF had full confidence it would be granted thus proceeded to make the pendulum using the original DRGM. That could also explain why the original expiry date limited their protection.
     
  5. DieteR

    DieteR Registered User

    Sep 18, 2008
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    John, thanks for your comments.

    First: There is no letter on the lowerleft corner, exact so as on Plate 1439.

    But there is a number (8) at the inner side of both plates. Allways on the lower left corner.
    Looking on another movement standing nearby, this movement has a 0 at the same place.

    You'll be right, it's surely a Marrige.
    I thought that I saw a photo of this clock years ago, but this is wrong.
    The clock on the photos (which I attached here) shows a very similar clock.

    Your statement that there was the arrow pendulum only for one year, surprised me!

    Because, in this case, there should be very few of them. On the other hand I already have
    4 pieces of it in my collection.
    From the pendulum with the DRGM number on the bottom, I had only 6 pieces owned.

    060k.JPG 058k.JPG


    DieteR
     
  6. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Dieter, the clock you posted now is very interesting. It has the similar "look" as the Kienzle Calendar clock but is actually a different design. I've not seen this one beforr do it is new to me. Do you have a photo of the back of the movement? Would be nice to be able to document when it was made.

    Regarding the "Arrow" pendulum, since the repair and service of 400-Day clocks is my business as well as being my passion for research, my experience is there are very few of the Arrow pendulum and many of the No. 39 4-Ball with DRGM stamped on the bottom. My database contains 170 JUF clocks made between the introduction of the Arrow pendulum in late 1909 up to the beginning of 1916 when JUF stopped making 400-Day clocks during WWI. There are 7 Arrow pendulums in the data, all made between the end of 1909 and the end of 1910. There are 42 clocks with the No. 39 pendulum with DRGM stamp made from the end of 1910 to 1916, 9 clocks with the JUF 3-Ball pendulum patented in early 1913, and 7 clocks with the No. 16 "Spinning Top" pendulum all made in 1913. The remaining 105 clocks in this group of 170 are fitted with a JUF disc pendulum.

    What this shows is that the Arrow pendulum, the 3-Ball pendulum, and pendulum No. 16 were all short lived, and that the disc pendulum was still the main one used prior to WWI. It also shows that JUF were developing their ball pendulums in those days. After the war, the 4-Ball pendulum quickly became dominant, with disc pendulums virtually disappearing by 1925. JUF still were working on other designs, with the "inverted 4-Ball" pendulum No. 27 being patented in March 1924 and used for several years.
     
  7. DieteR

    DieteR Registered User

    Sep 18, 2008
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    John, here are all photos of this clock.

    This clock is not in my collection!
    Unfortunately, I only have these small blurred photos.
    They are on my PC since the beginning of 2009.

    I have no further information about this clock.

    DieteR

    056k.JPG 057k.JPG 058k.JPG 059k.JPG 060k.JPG
     
  8. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Dieter, thanks very much for the additional photos. After considering all the features found on this clock, unfortunately I have to conclude it is also a marriage. Here are the points I have to consider:

    1) The movement has the double elephant logo with no other apparent markings. This plate was made only from March 1927 to about mid-1931.

    2) The upper suspension bracket No. 15 (incorrectly shown in the Repair Guide as by Kienzle) is the Huber "C" gimbal design used exclusively by JUF. However, the last recorded confirmed use of this bracket was in September 1912, three months after JUF introduced bracket No. 10 in June 1912. No. 10 became their exclusive standard to the last clocks made before shutting down due to WWII.

    3) The small 2-1/4 inch dial with the flared and beaded bezel was last used in series about mid-1907 based on actual serial numbered examples. JUF did make other clocks with this small dial, however the bezel was the rectangular cross-section and highly embossed design used by Huber for clocks they contracted for movement supply from Hauck (1904-1906) and JUF (1907-1908).

    4) The disc pendulum evidently is by JUF from what I can see, however this was last used in series in early 1924.

    5) The brass-plated steel cap on the base was last used before WWI.

    One puzzling aspect of this clock in my view is the pediment and twist posts. The pediment design has a typical JUF circular design below the center finial, but the finials themselves I've not seen on any other JUF. These parts and the twist columns appear to be very well made, so whomever put this together was an excellent craftsman.
     
  9. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    John,

    I would have thought you would have more than 7 in that range. We didn't cover it in my previous thread about these pendulums so, in case I have some recorded that you don't, the numbered clocks I've recorded with an arrow pendulum are: 95087, 96394, 96797, 98031, and 99967.

    Eric
     
  10. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Hi Eric, what is an Arrow pendulum? Is the JUF 4-ball pendulum with pattern number on the bottom call Arrow?
    Ming
     
  11. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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  12. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Thank you very much Kurt. Now I understand the arrow. It actually has two arrows point out.
    Ming
     
  13. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Eric, thanks for the info. Actually none of these were in my data, so now we've jumped from seven to twelve. All of them fit within the time frame that I posted earlier so that info doesn't change but it does show they were more frequently used in 1910 than had been shown before.

    Did you post any of these on the MB? If you did I've missed them somehow. Also to Dieter (and anyone else who has a JUF with arrow pendulum) will appreciate if you could post the serial numbers of the clocks you own that have them. That will help fill out and confirm the data we have. Basic photos of each clocks would of course be appreciated. :thumb:
     
  14. Pat L.

    Pat L. Registered User
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    Here's one with an arrow pendulum. The movement is s/n 87889 and has a letter G in the lower-left corner.

    DSC09446.JPG DSC09447.JPG DSC09462.JPG DSC09453.JPG DSC09456.JPG DSC09457.JPG DSC09458.JPG
     
  15. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #15 John Hubby, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    Pat, thanks for posting the photos of your clock. You certainly have an authentic "Arrow" version of JUF's patented 4-Ball design, which would have been made after the DRGM patent number 403658 was granted on November 12, 1909. However, the movement serial number indicates the clock itself was made about mid-September of 1909, too early to have been fitted with this pendulum. My data show that the likely earliest serial number to have been fitted with this pendulum as original equipment would be about 91250, allowing for the 2 to 3 weeks time needed to communicate the patent number to the factory after it was granted. At this writing the lowest number I have authenticated with the Arrow pendulum is 92355, made about mid-December 1909.

    The clock design is exactly the same as was used when your pendulum was introduced, so from that point of view it is "correct". However, I'm certain the pendulum is not original with the clock; the original pendulum would have been a standard JUF disc design.
     
  16. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    John,

    I agree the clock is outside the serial number range for the pendulum, but not by that much. In other postings haven't you noted some time lags from when a clock would have been made and when it was sold? Couldn't it be possible that Pat's clock was in stock at a retailer when the pendulum became available (as an option remember) and was sold with the clock originally? Perhaps the new and improved pendulum is was got it off the shelf. We can never know for certain, but it is a possibility.

    Eric
     
  17. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Eric, since the time frame is actually only a few months difference that could be possible, but only if JUF sold the pendulums "loose" as an option. My thought is that because it was a really new idea and that they very obviously never licensed the patent, I have substantial doubts that JUF would sell the pendulum for general use by jewelers. Never say never, but in this instance I think unlikely.
     

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