A New Herschede Model 10 Project

Isaac

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Hey all,

Spied this on E-bay for a while. Seems like the biggest issue is the bezel glass is loose and the solder near the hinge joint. A minor thing is that the little brass strip that runs from the top of the movement to the back of the case is missing. Otherwise, seller says it runs. Earlier version of the Model 10 movement, since it is Westminster only and lacks the Canterbury chimes.


Your thoughts?
 

Isaac

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True that!

I'd call myself cautiously optimistic. Until it gets into my hands after shipping, all bets are off!

Don't believe anything a "seller" tells you!
:) Willie X
 

chimeclockfan

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This looks like an older mantel clock made around 1924-1925, after the case patterns were revised but before the more familiar dual chime 'Model 10' movement was introduced. It is No. 2021 which is shown in this 1923 brochure in older form with chunkier case shape and plain wood applications. Solid mahogany case.


Here's an old chunky No. 2021 for contrast and comparison. Arabic etched numerals and plain dial center:

20211.JPG

The movement was not originally referred by any Model number since Herschede made no other mantel chime movements in the early 1920's. The Model designations only occurred after the different grade subsets were introduced. The roman numeral dial with etched center are nice bonuses.
It's more than likely the clock will need a complete overhaul before it runs again. Usual routine with checking and repairing wear.
 

Salsagev

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Very nice! It’s serial number is 14718 so the year is 1923? Another concern is the missing dog tag in the back. But I’m sure these sound very nice due to the chain lift hammers.
 

Isaac

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Shipping almost claimed this clock - when I opened the box, I found the winding gear assembly completely disconnected from the Strike train! Thankfully, there was enough force from the click spring to hold the click wheel in place for the entire ride over. I found most of the parts, minus 1 screw that holds in the other side of the winding assembly. I'll need to find another (anyone have any spares), since having just 1 screw is playing with fire when it comes to winding assemblies.

Some really unconventional things about this clock compared to its younger versions. First, the movement seat board has no large thumb screws, instead they are flathead screws- you have to get a long and skinny screwdriver up and through 2 small holes in order to loosen the movement from its seat board.

Overall, looks like this clock wasn't run much at all. From a quick look at the pivot holes, there's no apparent wear (although there is dirt, which will be all cleaned out during disassembly).

I was expecting this one to use a smaller version of the gong block Herchede used on its earlier chime clocks, but this one uses the Mayland style gong block (I'm not complaining, a larger block gives a fuller sound).

The bezel is going to be the toughest job of getting this clock back up to its former glory.

I took off the two seat board screws in the front of the seat board (this is just a metal bracket that holds the movement precisely in its location.

Note the steel levers and lack of cut outs in the front plate that this older movement has compared to the newer versions. Serial number is 14718, which dates this clock to being made in 1923.

A video of the chimes:


IMG_2438.jpg IMG_2437.jpg IMG_2440.jpg IMG_2442.jpg IMG_2443.jpg IMG_2444.jpg
 

Isaac

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Took the movement apart for its overhaul, and replaced the leather hammer tips with new soft leather inserts.

A video with the new leathers post movement overhaul:


Here's a picture of the most of the movement parts (couldn't fit everything into frame), as well as the case which has undergone the usual cleaning and waxing.

All that remains is to fix the bezel, and find the brass Panama Exposition Grand Prize award plaque for the rear door.

IMG_2454.jpg IMG_2449.jpg IMG_2447.jpg
 

Salsagev

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Very nice! May I ask about your disassembly process with the movement? Is the bezel unattached?
Was there any restructuring necessary for the movement (rebushing, polishing, lathe-work, metal work, etc.
 

Isaac

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Disassembly involves first taking all of the levers and wheels and organizing them (after letting down mainspring power, of course). Then, the plates go in an ultrasonic cleaner and then have each pivot hole pegged to remove any sticky grime that might have been left over. Wheels and pinions are inspected for wear and other potential issues while the plates are apart. Each pivot is then polished on my Taig lathe to a mirror shine, and each wheel has a fine bristle brush rubbed through the teeth to remove any dirt. Movement is then reassembled without mainsprings installed and no levers on the front plate to further check for side to side movement in any wheel arbor (indicating pivot hole wear). If wear is shown, then the appropriate pivot holes are marked to be rebushed.

Movement is then taken apart again. Mainsprings are removed from their mainspring barrels and checked for rust or any other damage. Old mainspring oil is wiped off from the coils, and new mainspring lubrication is applied. The winding arbor is inspected and polished to a mirror shine where it interacts with the mainspring barrel and the movement plates. Mainspring barrels are inspected for wear around the hole (Same with mainspring barrel caps). Lots of other smaller steps, but that would mean writing the equivalent of a short novel.

This movement did not have any worn pivot holes upon cleaning and inspection, so most of my time was getting the old congealed oil and grime out of the pivot holes and off of the pivots. No part fabrication was necessary. Upon reassembly, the usual timing adjustments are done for the chime and strike train, and the movement is oiled and tested.

The bezel is completely unattached from the dial - the previous repair had a long solder joint that reached behind the dial pan to loosely hold the bezel in place, and was held in place by the wooden case and the dial pan. I'll need to figure out how I want to proceed with the repair.
 
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Salsagev

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shine, and each wheel has a fine bristle brush rubbed through the teeth to remove any dirt. Movement is then reassembled without mainsprings installed and no levers on the front plate to further check for side to side movement in any wheel arbor (indicating pivot hole wear). If wear is shown, then the appropriate pivot holes are marked to be rebushed.
I suppose all the polishing is required for such a fancy movement (not my Seth Thomas 89?). What do you use to mark the pivots? Do you use a scribe? I sometimes rely on previously scratched in x’s s’s to determine time side or strike.

Mainsprings are removed from their mainspring barrels and checked for rust or any other damage.
Do you not clean the barrel itself or remove the springs?
The dial is the part I was scared of that deterred me from purchasing this (on top of my limited resources/abilities), but it is definitely still a luxurious clock worth restoring. You got a deal for what you paid for. I’m surprised nobody else fought for it.
 

Isaac

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I suppose all the polishing is required for such a fancy movement (not my Seth Thomas 89?). What do you use to mark the pivots? Do you use a scribe? I sometimes rely on previously scratched in x’s s’s to determine time side or strike.
Polishing the pivots is just generally good practice on any antique movement - it'll reduce friction and wear slower (and it looks nice!). I just have a notebook handy next to me, and I'll mark the pivot location (for example, I'd mark C3 Rear), indicating the third wheel's pivot hole on the rear plate of the movement needs to be bushed. I don't like adding any marks to the movement itself.

Do you not clean the barrel itself or remove the springs?
Not sure what you mean here. In order for me to inspect and lubricate the springs properly, I have to remove them. While they're out, I clean the inside of the barrel and check for wear on the barrel and address any wear if necessary.

The dial is the part I was scared of that deterred me from purchasing this (on top of my limited resources/abilities), but it is definitely still a luxurious clock worth restoring. You got a deal for what you paid for. I’m surprised nobody else fought for it.
Thanks. One can't go wrong with an older pre-Starkville Herschede clock.
 

Salsagev

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Polishing the pivots is just generally good practice on any antique movement - it'll reduce friction and wear slower (and it looks nice!).
I will definitely take advantage of that when I get the resources.
Not sure what you mean here. In order for me to inspect and lubricate the springs properly, I have to remove them. While they're out, I clean the inside of the barrel and check for wear on the barrel and address any wear if necessary.
Sorry I missed asked that; do you clean the springs when they are out? I’ve seen some where they just relubricate it.

The thing I struggle most on when dealing with basic strike movements is getting the helper springs back aligned.
Sorry I hijacked the thread!
 

Isaac

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do you clean the springs when they are out? I’ve seen some where they just relubricate it.
Yes, I clean the springs while they're out. Old lubrication and grime tends to gum up the mainspring coils and cause the mainspring to sometimes release power erratically (potential trouble here).

The thing I struggle most on when dealing with basic strike movements is getting the helper springs back aligned.
I always reassemble the simpler T&S movements first, then focus on guiding the helper springs back through their holes in the plates after everything's together.
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff