A James Hoddell Chronometer

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Travler1, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    Hello all And here is asecond James Hoddell in a proper English case ....I believe it is London marked for 1868 and would appreciate confirmation of that as well as any other thoughts on the watch ...John D09FE47E-FFA6-4D92-807C-EFA0FCFDC6B8.jpeg E248806F-C468-4286-8690-4FD71F344493.jpeg 61A52223-9587-400C-BAA5-3A4CA536C092.jpeg EAB07680-D414-447B-A138-C1382874D3A0.jpeg
     
    small toc, Keith R... and pmwas like this.
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    I think your first picture is of a different case altogether?

    The marks in your third picture are certainly for London, 1868/9, 18 carat gold, and the maker's/sponsor's mark is for Henry Webb, trading as Webb & Webb, registered in April 1847 at 8 Skinner Street, Clerkenwell, then in 1856 at 159 St. John Street Road, then on 3rd April 1873 at 33 St. John Street Road. The London date letters changed each year in May, which probably accounts for when each change was made.

    The escapement is an Earnshaw type spring detent with a free sprung overcoil balance spring. The elaborate dial, and indeed the rest of the watch appear to be in very good condition.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    small toc and Keith R... like this.
  3. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    Hi Graham ...apologizes for the errant photo. I always appreciate your thoughts/knowledge ....did u notice the dial appeared to have goldbug termites ,,,a heavy handed treatment ! PS I’m not understanding your balance comment as the spring is helical ......and drumroll ...got some platinum screws !!!! ..I always appreciate hearing from you and kicking the can around a bit. Much respect ...John
     
  4. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
     
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    Sorry, from the angle of the picture it looked like a flat spring with overcoil. I thought I could see some flat coils in there. Of course, a helical spring must have overcoils. Could you post a better lit and more sideways view of the spring please?

    Now, if there are some flat coils as well as the helical part, then it could well be a duo-in-uno . . .

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    small toc likes this.
  6. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    Having tweaked the image somewhat, I'm pretty sure there are some flat coils down there, which if the rest of the spring is helical implies a duo-in-uno spring. These were mainly fitted by A.P. Walsh and John Hammersley, (who made the one in the following example).

    DSCF5465.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    small toc and Keith R... like this.
  7. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    Ehhhhhhh ....sugar

    Graham I must apologize again

    ... as I walked away from my original post to you and upon returning ....I did not think that the post had been sent

    So I edited that post ..unfortunately I didn’t edit my first post ......as It had already posted ...somehow I quoted myself ....:???: .ehhhhhh shoot

    ..... anyway best 2 you and thanks for your help on my watches
     
  8. Benjamin E.

    Benjamin E. Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 7, 2015
    43
    3
    8
    Country Flag:
    To start, that is a lovely watch from one of my favorite makers and thank you for sharing! Echo to Graham's suggestion of a duo-in-uno spring; there is certainly a spiral spring at the bottom, but an oblique shot would confirm. Also, the power reserve appears to run in reverse. Is this different in going barrel vs fusee watches?
    The dial is a bit of an oddball for an English watch. Such dials were typically found on watches destined for the South American market and this is the first one from Hoddell that I've seen (incidentally, also the first chronometer from him). Can we see the outside of the case, please? Top, bottom, cuvette, and side :)
    Am I not mistaken in that a hinged cuvette, especially labeled like that, is unusual for an English maker?
     
  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Benjamin,

    I think by this date they were becoming more common. I have seen rather later examples which actually admit in the top plate engraving that they were a 'Swiss movement finished in London', although I don't believe that this watch is an example of this. Once the swing out construction was superseded, the hinged cuvette was necessary.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    These are just part of the decoration, intended to represent flowers or perhaps fruit I think. The dial is certainly elaborate and rather finely done.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    2,039
    859
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A fine looking watch - the dial of which I thought I had seen before ...

    Not Identical ... but pretty :) close

    John
     
  12. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    8C33EB03-1C47-42CE-B191-0B30645B2DEB.png A43A39DD-4F97-4F67-9E4B-5314E9E3771B.png 35A46BAF-B6D7-488F-8627-FC5C5462629D.png Wow John. Spectacular Hoddell ....thanks for sharing as it’s also help with year and searial number for my US cased Hoddell ...
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  13. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    Hello Benjamin ...thank you for the compliments on my watch ...I will post extra shots of the balance in my response to Graham following this. As far as chronometer on cuvette ...it does appear a tad early for English Chronometers in my limited experience ....as there were no swiss levers clogging up the Kew time trials and later being referred to as Chronometers ... so at this time period. A Chronometer was a Chronometer !! One thought I had was that the owner requested the Chronometer on cuvette and the South American Dial ....A dandy type a Flash Harry who made a point of winding it in front of his mates ? On the reverse power reserve or wind indicator for a fusee watch ...I cannot comment with authority and will leave that with someone more knowledgeable. I have the same sort of question ...does a reverse fusee up/Down track a different direction than a standard fusee ? On motor barrel movements I have seen both directions of travel,for the up/down indicator ....

    D997B8A5-422F-4881-910F-CA0EFDC1D64A.jpeg FB43CB90-59E8-425B-B64D-9F313B37C44E.jpeg 31683B9C-7FAE-4B09-AC04-3A2CEBA5E2ED.jpeg CA184698-1D34-4ACC-9946-CB6567B086CC.jpeg 806FE13C-7C2A-4047-95C5-B45D78987197.jpeg
     
    Keith R... and Ethan Lipsig like this.
  14. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    Hi Graham ...here are the photos u requested also a photo of a different watch that I bailed out of lock up to research this weekend. There is no question that this other watches Spring is 8ABE6761-7972-4FC3-BFF9-D2AC0CD8F34B.jpeg BB892046-444B-4B14-8DEA-023DE2687C7D.jpeg 85966556-0464-4C47-930F-F26C9F811AF5.jpeg F1C4AE38-0BC9-4ECA-AE3E-804964EBAD5F.jpeg 4CE23261-82A4-45B0-81DC-D8104FA1D748.jpeg F3803891-6006-4BFF-8AA1-C04A3D4329F8.jpeg ED1B934D-B7C6-47F6-B913-DEFBCC5011C6.jpeg helical ....a vertical column.
    I’m not sure about the Hoddell spring I obviously confused spring reality upon reading your post and then replying ....you are correct it is not helical ...I’m having a hard time determining what to call it .....it’s not a bee hive spring ...I could only wish. I think it’s to flat for a duo in uno .(did Walsh provide these for Frodsham ...or did Frodsham also provide this spring on his own ). I notice that the Hoddell appears to have a slight dish and 2 wraps of over coil ...is that significant ? Thanks Graham for keeping me on the straight n narrow when I appear to have lost the plot ....best John
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  15. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,964
    1,405
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Walsh had an active business supplying duo in uno springs for Parkinson and Frodsham and others. He also supplied complete watches and provided regulation services. I don't really know what percentage of that business he and Hammersley each had. I doubt that Frodsham made any themselves.

    I actually have a loose movement with a spherical hairspring. I do not think I have ever seen one I would call a beehive. I can imagine a spring like the duo in uno that had half of a spherical in place of the helical portion of a duo in uno.
     
    Travler1 and Keith R... like this.
  16. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    2,039
    859
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    John

    The Hoddell #16174 appears to have a Breguet double overcoil spring - fairly common on quality London watches. If you search David Penney's site you will find many examples on Frodsham, Golay, Neilson etc. watches. They seem particularly common from ~1875, not sure when they were introduced, but earlier examples are not so common.

    Best shot at a list of balance spring types that I can come up with ... flat (volute), Breguet single overcoil, Breguet double overcoil, helical, duo-in-uno, tria-in-uno (helical with flat coils top & bottom), conical and spherical (bird cage). I have never seen an example of spherical or conical - conical said to have been used by Berthoud and spherical invented by Houriet. It is possible Graham may have photographs of these and possibly others.

    John
     
    Travler1 and Keith R... like this.
  17. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    Thanks for the pictures, which do confirm, as John M has said, that the Hoddell has a double overcoil, and the Bennett has a plain helical. If you ever take the dial off, you should find a frame maker's stamp on the pillar plate, probably Joseph Preston or John Wycherley, both in Prescot, Lancashire.

    There's a picture of a spherical spring in this old post from 2010, (or at least the top half of one), and this post from Tom in 2018. I don't have any images of a conical.

    Some additions to John's list of springs are, I suppose, gold springs and also glass springs, both of which are just different materials rather than variations in form.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    Travler1 and Keith R... like this.
  18. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    2,039
    859
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    For anyone interested, I have located a conical hairspring in Dr Crott's 91st auction of 15 May 2015. Lot 576 Henry Motel marine chronometer #107. There is an archive of the catalogues here - Archive

    John
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  19. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,967
    271
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    I once owned a chronometer by Charles Frodsham with a Walsh-made duo in uno hairspring.
    90382 6 Charles Frodsham.jpg 90382 5 Charles Frodsham.jpg

    This feature was announced by Frodsham at the International Exhibition in 1862, and I have somewhere a copy of the portion of the exhibition catalogue whch includes a dscription of Frodham's stand there, and which includes his duo-in-uno announcement.
     
    Travler1 and Keith R... like this.
  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,525
    1,221
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    I believe Jacques-Frédéric Houriet originated the spherical balance spring in 1814, and died in 1830. I expect that Walsh, Hammersley and McLennan were most probably aware of this development when working on their own balance springs in the 1850s and 60s.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    Keith R... and John Matthews like this.
  21. Benjamin E.

    Benjamin E. Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 7, 2015
    43
    3
    8
    Country Flag:
    If I remember correctly, Motel made use of conical springs, but John Leroux's lever watch was the first to employ one.
     
  22. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
    NAWCC Gold Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    1,830
    660
    113
    Male
    80% Retired Attorney
    Pasadena
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is a photo of the spherical hairspring on my Rossel detent chronometer, discussed in Swiss KW Detent Chronometer.

    DSC05264.JPG
     
  23. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    134
    51
    28
    florida
    Hi Ethan ...your Rossel detent balance is breathtaking ....” che bello sono inamorata” please whisper those words upon taker her out for a wind ....in my humble classification a bee hive ......much respect
     
  24. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
    NAWCC Gold Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    1,830
    660
    113
    Male
    80% Retired Attorney
    Pasadena
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Your Hoddell chronometer is adorable too!
     

Share This Page