A "Funny" thing happened to Rolex papers vs watch back in 1983.

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by MrRoundel, Jun 2, 2019.

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  1. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    #1 MrRoundel, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    OK, so here's an interesting one. I was watching the Rolex portion of the JH auction today. This got me interested in checking out the early-early eighties Oyster Perpetual Date that I inherited in 2008. I wanted to find out the difference between Oyster Datejust and Oyster Date, specifically.

    I was able to find the perfect article to find out the info I desired. It was very interesting.
    What’s the Difference? The Rolex Men’s Datejust Vs. The Rolex Men’s Date

    My mother purchased the watch for my dad, new in early December 1983, from a large jeweler who is still in business, and who presently will remain nameless. But they are one of the big mall operators that has been around for many years, and still is in business.

    My parents, not being watch people at all, just knew it was a Rolex in SS. I asked my mom if she remembers having a box for it. She didn't remember, but was pretty sure it came in a box. After all, she had gift wrapped it for Xmas '83. That box was either tossed or the jeweler gave her a standard gift-box and sent her on her way. I know that might sound farfetched and paranoid, but read on, as it gets more interesting, and damning, IMHO.

    I found the registration that my parents got with the watch, along with the owner's manual and the green Rolex envelope that they are kept in. My parents never had any other Rolex watch. My dad's previous watch was an automatic Wittnauer, and my mom never had anything than a Wittnauer, which she lost, as well as Timex stuff.

    As I read the article, I read with interest that it was in 1983 that Rolex changed to a movement with a quick-set feature. My dad's watch is a "Date", without quick-set. I find that interesting. I mean, it was purchased at the very end of '83, yet it did not have the '83 feature. I then noticed that the certificate, which was filled out by my dad, in his printing, had a serial number in the 719**** range. However, the folded card shows a different number that is in the 783**** range, which would seem to indicate a quick-set model. It also had another number that showed it was in the 15,000A series. According the article, the 15,000 range should have a quick-set date on it. Was my mom taken advantage of? I say probably so, but gave a little benefit of the doubt to the jeweler on that one. But no matter what, something was not right. They weren't buying from a guy on a the corner in a trench-coat.

    The benefit of the doubt I gave this large jeweler wore much thinner as I noticed that the owner's manual that came with the watch gave instructions for a non-quick-set model. That was strange, being that if it was a paperwork mix-up, one would think that the envelope that contained the instructions, as well as a different, and later, serial number, would have had an owner's manual that instructed on how to use the quick-set. Of course, the actual watch does not have this feature. If they had been given the instruction book that mentioned the quick-set, they would realize that something was wrong with the paperwork, despite not being watch people, right? I mean, they were not stupid. Just not watch people.

    I'll have to wait until I get to the bank to get the watch so I can check the serial number.

    Admittedly, I have very limited experience with Rolexes. But if the Beckertime article is correct that 15000 series watches should have the quick-set, then I'm pretty sure they were taken, and rather fraudulently. I'm guessing that the salesperson knew my mom knew nothing, that they could pass last year's model off on her and never be discovered. She told me that she just paid what they asked, and nobody ever explained a difference or offered a discount for a discontinued model.

    So what say the Rolex experts about such a scenario. Many thanks, ahead of time. Cheers.
     
  2. MrRoundel

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    #2 MrRoundel, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    When I just saw that the green envelope from Rolex had a paragraph that told customers to make sure that the serial number of the watch matches that of the warranty card (What I called the green envelope.), I realized that my parents probably would not have had a warranty on the watch. But it was an important enough paragraph to put on the envelope, so the jewelers sure knew it was important. My dad didn't have good eyes, so he probably never read it. But again, the jewelers knew. Buggers.

    Oh, and I just noticed that the later model also got a sapphire crystal. My dad's watch does not. I even have a receipt for the replacement of the "acrylic crystal". This is more proof that it is the earlier model, and lacks bona-fide upgrades of the later one. Buggers 2.
     
  3. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    The ONLY strange thing is that the paperwork does not tie up. It happens, wrong box and papers and in the 80s no one cared!

    Dont get too stressed based on BECKERTIME, they have only a little more knowledge than you - ROLEX is not an exact science.

    Was the jewller your parents bought it from an AD? If so, they can request replacement papers.
    If NOT an AD, watch was 2nd hand and anyone could have mixed the papers. Is watch actually genuine??
    adam
     
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  4. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    #4 MrRoundel, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    Thanks, Adam. I'm not stressing. After all, it is an heirloom that I'm lucky to have.
    As far as the dealer, is Slavick's an authorized dealer? I suspect they are. My mom bought it new from them. Thanks again.

    Hmm...they don't show up as an authorized dealer. Maybe they no longer are? Hmmm...
     
  5. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I do NOT think they are an AD?
    Hence watch is 2nd hand,
    Suggest you take it into a AD and just get it checked.

    I am sure watch will be genuine, but who knows Slavick's would not know a Rolex from a Ford car!

    A
     
  6. MrRoundel

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    #6 MrRoundel, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    Wow, if it was second hand, that would be way worse, a complete and utter fraud. Maybe someone traded it for the quick-set, so they switched papers with it. If I had a case-back remover for the Rolex, I'd eventually be able to take a picture of it for positive ID. There should be an AD in the area that I could take it to. Thanks again for your help. Cheers.

    BTW, the warranty card with the punched in serial number was filled out by my dad in '83. Therefore, unless the warranty card wasn't filled out by the previous owner (If it is second hand.), then it an original certificate. Can the serial number be found on the case anywhere?
     
  7. Adam Harris

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    Well googling Slavick's does not find anything about them being an AD.
    Indeed only two reviews and they are bad:???:?

    Only a ROLEX AD can sell a brand new Rolex, and they dont mix up boxes??
    A
     
  8. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Yeah, I read those reviews. Interesting. Of course, this is back in the eighties, and different people were working there. :emoji_upside_down: I don't even see anything about them being a dealer in the eighties. But that, in and of itself, is not conclusive, right?

    Oh, and the box isn't mixed up. I just don't have it, and my mom doesn't remember anything about it, other than it being a box to wrap it in.
     
  9. captainscarlet

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    Hi MrRoundel, the most important paperwork for your watch is the chronometer certificate. The serial number on that should match the number stamped between the lugs on the case of your watch. All the other bits and pieces are nice to have but don't mean much. I hope you can get it sorted.
     
  10. Adam Harris

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    Nothing is conclusive.
    but if they were or had been an AD I think we would have found something
    Call them and ask!
     
  11. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Rolex do not supply a chronometer certificate
    ONLY their own guarantee.
    I never saw a ROLEX COSC certificate with movement serial number or indeed case serial number!
     
  12. captainscarlet

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    It is part of the warranty.
     
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  13. MrRoundel

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    Thanks, gents. I'll pull the band when I get my hands on it. Any particular side, so I don't pull two pins? I've dealt with the type of "hooded" band on a watch before, it it was a little bit of pain. No terrible, just a little hassle. Thanks.
     
  14. captainscarlet

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    Model number at 12.
    Serial number at 6.
     
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  15. MrRoundel

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    Thanks, captainscarlet. I agree with the other stuff being extras. Getting it sorted out is just good so whoever gets it from me gets the real thing someday. It would be embarrassing if it turned out otherwise. Cheers.

    Oh, and thanks for the location info. Cheers.
     
  16. MrRoundel

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    Wow, even the serial number is different! It matches neither the warranty card or the envelope. It is in the 732*** range. I shudder to think what's on the movement. Ain't that special?
     
  17. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    This is a crazy story and I'm interested to find out what's
    inside the case.


    Rob
     
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  18. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    But there is NO COSC document with results over 15 day, unlike Panerai or Omega or Breitling.

    Its just in the 80s a paper document with case serial number model, date sold!
    The OP has that - with INcorrect serial number. There is NO separate COSC document either in the 80s or now!
     
  19. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Movement serial number has NOTHING to do with case serial number or warranty papers.
    Is a random code number ONLY known to ROLEX SA
     
  20. MrRoundel

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    Still think that's the "only thing", Adam? :emoji_cartwheel:

    Of course, I just saw your last post, Adam. Thanks.
     
  21. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Yes!
    So far thats the ONLY proven issue!
    I doubt you got a complete fake!
     
  22. MrRoundel

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    #22 MrRoundel, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
    I agree, but will find out for sure someday soon. But the three different numbers is extra odd, no? I mean that would seem to take some effort to do that by accident. Thanks again.

    (Edited to add the "three different numbers" sentence.)
     
  23. Adam Harris

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    Yes. Lets not speculate or jump to conclusions.
    I doubt a fake from 80s would be running today - possible but I dont think so.
    Also papers by counterfeiters in the 80s? Not so sure?

    Nothing else bad so far.

    A
     
  24. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    BTW, I'm really not whipped up about this. I'm 98% sure that the movement will be the proper one. A 3035? I just find the discrepancies quite interesting, regarding things from any decade.
     
  25. Adam Harris

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    Dont think its a 3035.
    That has quickset??
     
  26. MrRoundel

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    OK, I'll take another look at the article on Becker. I seem to remember them saying the 3135 has the quick-set. I know that you said they didn't know much more than I.

    I misread the article. They don't give a model number of those earlier than the '83 vintage, which mine apparently is.
     
  27. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Yes, the 1570 that it replaced NEVER had quickset.
    3035 was Rolex 1st Caliber with quickset and 8 BPS

    Your watch will have the 1570 older caliber!
    Adam
     
  28. MrRoundel

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    Thanks, Adam. I believe that was what I thought it would have in it, prior to reading the article today. The fact that it's an '83, purchased in late '83, got me a bit more confused than normal, if that's at all possible. ;) Cheers.
     
  29. Adam Harris

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    No worries
    I studied vintage Rolex 15 years, and I do not know 10% of what the famous James Dowling knows.
    So much to learn!
     
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  30. MrRoundel

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    #30 MrRoundel, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
    During my Slavick's search, I found a post on the Rolex forum where the OP mentions buying himself a new Rolex at Slavick's to celebrate his new Phd. It was in 1982. He also mentioned that, due to employee ineptitude (paraphrasing) he didn't get the hang-tag(s). I think I've got him beat. ;-) He happened to buy his from a different, but still California, location. The locations close to me appear to be out of business.

    Since the post was only late last month, I'm hoping the OP can answer whether they were an AD back then. I'll keep you posted, folks.

    My 16750 - Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum
     
  31. Hawk53

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    Meanwhile, assuming any "jewelry store" hires employees with any training at all is just a huge mistake on the buyers end.
     
  32. MrRoundel

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    Thanks, I'll pass that on to my 90 year-old mother, who as I said in my original post, really knew nothing about watches. True, she's a relic of a time when you could probably trust a larger percentage of people selling you stuff.
     
  33. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I would not bother - it was a pointless and senseless remark

    A
     
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  34. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I think there was a hint of sarcasm in MrRoundel's response(but I could be wrong).
    So Adam I don't think he is telling his mother.


    Rob
     
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  35. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    You may be right, but I dont take chances.
    I am not a "funny" guy!!
     
  36. MrRoundel

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    The poster was probably referring to the guy on the Rolex forum, not my mother. I get that. However, I guess it hit me wrong, and seemed a bit condescending. No big deal from my end.

    Oh, and I guess I am kind of a funny guy. Sometimes stuff doesn't come through in text. I think musicguy has some knowledge of how I write, etc., as he's on the pocket-watch boards, where I was usually hanging out in the past. Cheers.
     
  37. MrRoundel

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    I overlooked the fact that the number that would appear in the window of the envelope, would be the number stamped into the warranty card. I was looking at the other numbers that are printed on the top. It sure seems weird that the one on the right wouldn't be a serial number, when the model number is on the left. But the printed number shown on the envelope actually turns out to either have an extra digit in it, if it was a serial, or there has been a huge miracle and I should alert the press. Using the printed number as the serial number in a serial search, brings up a watch that was built somewhere between 2011-2019. This would be impossible, as I have had the watch since around '09, and it hasn't left my possession for service, or any other reason.

    CCI06042019.jpg
     
  38. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Well, I knew my mom, who never threw anything out, would eventually find the receipt for the Rolex. I'm looking at it right now. It doesn't have a lot of info on it. Somewhat conspicuously absent is anything like a serial number. One would think that they would at least put that on there for warranty purposes. All that's there is a "Class Code" (Probably corporate record?), price ($1,035 in '83 dollars.), "Mans SS Rolex. R1500A".

    If I was inclined to try to get the proper documentation for it, would this help me get it from Rolex? Surely they would know if Slavick's was an authorized dealer for them in '83. Thanks ahead of time. Cheers.
     
  39. MrRoundel

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    Update: I took the watch out the other day and found that it does indeed have the quick-set date. That makes it a lot more convenient. The watch was serviced by a non-authorized service center back around 2009. Apparently they didn't use any thread-locker on the crown. A few years ago, and before this thread, I had tried to turn it backwards to set the time or the date and the crown came off in my hands. Now I'm always paranoid about turning it counterclockwise. Whenever I either service it myself or get it serviced by a pro I will make sure that crown gets thread-locker, or whatever else Rolex suggests for securing the crown.

    So, I guess it having the quick-set does make it a likely 3035 model, yes?
     
  40. Jeff Hess

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    Adam, you are wrong. they ere in fact Authorized dealers as a quick net-search notes here. Also, AD's in the 80's were supplied with large amounts of papers, booklets and pamphlets that were routinely mismatched. (even blank papers were given to A.D.'s)

    The watch is fine. It is not a fake. The papers are for real. The A.D. was indeed an a.d/

    Jeffrey P. Hess

    Screen Shot 2020-03-05 at 8.20.59 AM.png
     
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  41. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Wrong on what point!
    PS Nice to see you posting ::sigh::
     
  42. MrRoundel

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    Thanks for providing the ad, Jeff. I didn't find anything while searching online for information of what the ad shows. I'm not surprised that they were an AD, but I couldn't seem to prove it to myself. Since I found it does have a quick-set date, I'm going with it having a C3035 until I can remove the back and prove otherwise. At least that's what my internet reading has brought me to. I may even go and buy one of those Horotec movement holders for it so I can more safely service it when the time comes. Of course I also have to get a tool to remove the back.

    Thanks again for clearing up the AD question, Jeff.
     
  43. roughbarked

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    You could have applied a drop of thread lock inside the thread in the crown then wound it back on yourself. That should have held it until the next service.
     
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  44. MrRoundel

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    At the time it happened I hadn't been working on many wrist-watches. Now since I am more familiar with how things are done on them, I would have applied thread-lock. I had to replace a crown on my GF's watch twice because I didn't use Loctite and she spun it off and lost it. I'm pretty sure I used blue locker on it.

    Interesting, I just looked on the Loctite site and saw that they actually mentioned attaching a crown during a watch repair with their purple low-strength product. I'd never heard of it. I guess that's what I'll use, as it doesn't really need to be very strong, right?
     
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  45. Kevin W.

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    Good tip on thread locker, i would have not thought of that. I dont do much watch repair.
     
  46. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    You may need to get the crown off again at some stage. It only needs to be strong enough to stop it unscrewing. For most of my life I have never even used thread lock on crowns. If they are done up tightly enough in the first place, they never come off.
     
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  47. PapaLouies

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    Rolex serial number 7,83x,xxx ca. 1982.
    Serial number 732,xxx ca. 1950.
    Regards, PL
     
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  48. MrRoundel

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    OK, PapaLouies, you got me to remove the jubilee band again. For some odd reason I decided not to record the numbers I pulled from the sides of the case back when I started this discussion. So yes, I left off a digit (or "*"). The stamped/engraved number on the side of the case has one more digit in it. The actual warranty on the case is 7,323,***. What year does that show it being from? Thanks.

    As I said above, this number does not match the number that was on the warranty envelope given to my mom when she bought the watch. It is roughly 500,000 numbers apart/earlier.

    And while Adam says that the number on the Warranty/Chronometer Cert. may not match the one of the watch, the cert does say "Chronometer 719****" , which is a similarly formatted and range of number to the actual number engraved on the case. I doubt that Rolex would make them so close for different things. But I suppose stranger things have happened.

    The other thing is that on the warranty envelope it says to ensure that the serial number on your watch corresponds to the one on the warranty. Since I doubt that they expect a new owner to remove the back of the watch (Heck, even removing the band is a stretch, no?), it sure seems like the engraved serial and the warranty serial should match up.

    Sorry if this is all repeating what was said above. But the odd condition of the paperwork remains with the case serial number, the warranty envelope serial number, and the certificate serial number, all being different. Even the receipt shows a different number from the watch case, "R1500A" vs. "15000". That may not mean anything but a zero being left off inadvertently. We'll never know. Will we? Thanks all.
     
  49. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    #49 PapaLouies, Mar 8, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
    MrRoundel, your watch was produced in 1981 and I think it quite possible that the watch was new and set on the shelf for two years before it was sold to your mother. I assume your Reference number on the case is 15000 and if so the watch is a Rolex Oyster Perpetual Date with stainless steel case and bracelet.
    The movement is likely a Caliber 3035 quick-set. Please check to verify the quick-set. The 3035 quick-set debuted in 1977 in the Oyster Perpetual Datejust and continued in use in the Date, Datejust and others until 1988 when the 3135 was introduced. I have no information on the papers R1500A.
    Regards, PL
     
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  50. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Yes, PapaLouies, the case does have "15000" stamped/engraved in it as well as the 732****. Thanks for checking on the date, and your input on the model. I was recently curious because I was going to buy an Horotec movement holder and I didn't want to buy the one for the 1570 if it was likely a 3035. Now I just have to figure out which case opener will be the most cost effective. I like the LG Openall, but it's a bit pricey for what might be a single use. Decisions, decisions...Thanks again. Cheers.
     
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