A flea market find....

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Jan 16, 2014.

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  1. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    First permit me to start by saying that I typically initiate a new thread or make an addition to an existing on the weekend which is when I have the time to do it.

    However, yet again and rather persistently, the MB, or maybe it should be called "Das MB", has again become hypermonofocused on just couple of types of clocks.

    I know that I would like to read about something else. I thought that maybe someone might too. So here we go.

    As I've said, this is a flea market find and a bit of a quandary that I would appreciate comments upon.

    It was found at my favorite Sunday AM flea market.

    It does have condition issues including lack of finials, missing returns (that's easy for a good restorer), the "platform" on the top of the center chimneyand the entire chimney on the viewer's right are replaced, a replacement lower tablet and the feet on the viewer's right are I believe good hand made replacements. The case was refinished.

    However, the rest seems real and right, yes even the scrolls, skirt and the other feet.

    I was able to negotiate a very reasonable price.

    Still, why buy it?

    Ah ha. It's made by Jeromes and Darrow. They made very few pillar and scrolls and just for a short period of time, about 1829-1830. They chose instead to focus upon their reeded pillar and splats and of course, their bronze looking glass clocks.

    What's my quandary?

    Well, in the text sources I've consulted, I've found rather few examples of Jeromes and Darrow pillar and scrolls.

    See:

    1. Bailey, "Rags to Riches to Rags", page 25, figure 36 and page 26, figure 37.

    2. Brown and Oechsle, "Good for a Time", page 52. Also note caption indicating their scarcity.

    3. Roberts and Taylor, "Eli Terry and the CT Shelf Clock", second edition, page 189 and page 190, figures 89A-C. In that reference, it is stated that these clocks "are not commonly seen".

    Note the labels, movements, etc.

    Also see this past MB thread:

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?86750-Jeromes-darrow-pillar-scroll-case&highlight=darrow

    They are all in "Bristol" style cases as I would have expected. This one has a molded base! It gave me pause but the seller was "motivated" and he put up with my disassembling before buying.

    I've been all over this case. I've very carefully examined the back boards, even partially removing the lower portion with the bell and label. It's easy to change that stuff from another old clock. Unfortunately, dumb bell did not document with photos what was found when I partially removed the lower back board before resecuring it. Nail holes, oxidation patterns, wearpatterns, etc, etc, all indicate to me that except for the condition problems already noted, it's real.

    I've posted many pix including those of repair notations and a chaulked "18" I found on the inner door frame. Was wondering if that was from the maker?

    Would love to hear comments.

    RM
     

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  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    My first comment is why can't I find things like this at flea markets? Second comment - not sure what you mean by the MB being hyermonofocused on one or two types. This section IS about wooden works clocks and I see lots of different ones but naturally all wooden. Other sections discuss just about every kind one could think of. Sorry I can't help with the questions specific to your clock but it is truly a nice find.

    RC
     
  3. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks for your kind comment.

    I understand how my comment may be misconstrued.

    I was most certainly not referring to this forum or anything posted here.

    I do think other forums are at times overly devoted to just a few types of clocks and time pieces.

    It makes me cuckoo.

    RM
     
  4. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
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    RM,
    I understand you perfectly and none the less because I'm partially guilty of some of the other fora 'going cuckoo':whistle: , but I also love talking on Morbiers or American woodworks too;)

    Congrats for your find! :cool: Could you, please, post photo(s) of the upper side from the back, showing glue-blocks and the scrolls?

    Aitor
     
  5. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks.

    Please post some of the other stuff too! Need some variety.

    Will post back of scrolls when I have the chance.

    Thanks again.

    RM
     
  6. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Sorry RM, the last stroke of severe clockitis I'm suffering is of the BF kind...:cuckoo:
    I'll love to see more pics of your beautiful P&S , anyway;)
    The tablet, even if repalced seems to be a nice one...
    Is some kind of repair the small wooden block between the verge and the hour cannon?

    Aitor
     
  7. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Its a great find and a great looking clocks. It amazes me the knowledge to make a wooden works clock and they still keep going .Your clock looks all original to me, and the label looks good. Nice to find a seller who allows you to takke things apart a bit to look.
     
  8. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    "Sorry RM, the last stroke of severe clockitis I'm suffering is of the BF kind...:cuckoo:
    I'll love to see more pics of your beautiful P&S , anyway;)
    The tablet, even if repalced seems to be a nice one...
    Is some kind of repair the small wooden block between the verge and the hour cannon?

    Aitor"

    Thanks for your kind comments.

    There's no repair in the area you mention.

    And please, no apologies!

    Let me hasten to say with one exception (well, maybe 2), I welcome postings about ALL clocks.

    I do realize that postings beget similar postings and so things go in surges and waves.

    My "complaint" is actually with those that DON'T participate by posting their clocks which would relieve the tendency to fall into an often observed repetitive pattern of postings leading to "hypermonofocus".

    "Its a great find and a great looking clocks. It amazes me the knowledge to make a wooden works clock and they still keep going .Your clock looks all original to me, and the label looks good. Nice to find a seller who allows you to takke things apart a bit to look."

    Kevin: Thanks for you kind comment. The seller knows and trusts me from the past...and it was a slow day at the "flea" for him. He was motivated to make the sale.

    RM ​
     
  9. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    You have a better grade of fleas than we have. Congratulations on a very nice find Bob!
     
  10. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
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    To find a clock like that here, would be through connections or a very fine antique shop. Not in the flea markets here.
     
  11. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks for your kind comments.

    It's one of those flea markets where stuff pops up.

    Any thoughts on the use of a molded base P&S case here rather than the Bristol type P&S case that seems to be found more typically with Jerome and Darrow P&S's?

    RM
     
  12. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    RM,

    The universe of J&D pillar & scrolls is very small, and I didn't hold out much hope that I'd be able to track down another example with a molded base. But I turned to one of the better books (for pictures, anyway), Ball's American Shelf & Wall Clocks (2nd ed.). It shows a few J&D pillar & scrolls, and on page 127, there's an example with a molded base.

    The movement in your clock is an Ephraim Downs type 8.12 (1980 S. Taylor classification), which is the correct movement for a J&D pillar & scroll. The only oddity about the movement is the fact that the arbor cups appear to have been enlarged, obliterating the rings that are typically found (and should be present on a type 8.12).

    Congrats on picking up such a nice treasure at your local flea market. I'll second the comments from others: If only I had access to flea markets like that where I live!

    Mike
     
  13. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    allthough I don´t understand anything about this verry American - and on my side of the pond allmost unknown- clock I deeply congrat You to this beauty!Verry nice,whish it were mine!
    Burkhard
     
  14. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Mike,

    Thanks for your kind comments and the additional information.

    I missed that one in Ball's book.

    The photos he used are from Bourne's clock auction catalogs from the 80's to early 90's when they went belly-up. For most of their clock auctions, the respected Americana dealer Peter Sawyer vetted the stuff and wrote the descriptions/condition reports. Those reports are also used in Ball's book where, unfortunately, they have been significantly abbreviated. I have a nearly full run of their catalogs. I'll try to see if I can find that entry.

    You're absolutely correct in your observations about the movement. I neglected to mention that. I believe someone painstakingly and overly aggressively drilled out all the pivot holes and rebushed the movement with wood. The rings were drilled out in the process. Otherwise not a bad job. I really should see if it runs.

    Burkard,

    Thanks for your kind comment.

    RM
     
  15. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Perusing the literature including some of the references listed previously, I've found some makers used the Bristol case and at other times the molded base was used though there is a predominance of one over the other.

    Apparently J&D did the same with a lower output of the pillar and scroll overall.

    I found a Bulletin article by Tom Grimshaw that might be of interest regarding my question square vs. molded base. See whole Number 238, October, 1985, page 540

    I had attempted to create a link to the article, but for reasons beyond my comprehension, the MB won't keep me logged in. When I then try to log is as requested, I'm told my log in has failed. Apparently I'm doing something terribly wrong and taking too long to do it. And it used to work just fine before.

    RM
     
  16. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    RM,

    Nice bit of digging to come up with the article by Tom Grimshaw (link below). It would be interesting to know if (and how) the makers distinguished between the two in their day books. I would imagine the molded bases cost a little more to make, so it seems unlikely that the two would have been sold for the same amount.

    Mike
    http://www.nawcc.org/images/stories/1980/articles/1985/238/238_540.pdf
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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  18. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    In recognition of another, umm, trend, that seems to be gracing the MB of naming inaminate objects and greeting them, I have decided to name this clock Peter Säuleundblättern. And this morning I looked it in the face and said "how-dee-dew".

    RM
     
  19. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #19 Jim DuBois, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
    deleted
     
  20. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #20 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Jan 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2018
    The posting of a Jeromes and Darrow P&S sort of completes the story of some early Jerome wooden works as presented on the MB.

    Have put together a photomontage.

    Please see the original threads for more information.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg



    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg

    74580.jpg 74583.jpg

    RM
     
  21. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    I always found this Jeromes and Darrow interesting...sorry, don't have a better photo.
     

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  22. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Jim,

    Thanks for posting your Jerome "jester top".

    Always liked that case style. Pretty scare, too.

    The use of only spiral turned 1/2 columns on a WW clock is also not typical in my experience. Spiral turning was more typically used as an element of the decoration of carved columns.

    For example of what I mean, see the Riley Whiting Transition in my photo album.

    RM
     

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