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A Few Canadian Railroad Watches - Please Add Yours
- Thread starter Leigh Callaway
- Start date
Don't worry about it. I posted my comment to discourage others from straying from the topic, not to criticize you.
Kent was good enough to post the Ball Canadian catalog from the early 19 teens.
So here's my 16-size 23j motor barrelled specimen manufactured circa 1911, having been made for Ball by Hamilton (known as Grade 999N). The watch sports a "Canadian" dial with marginal minutes figures, those at the fives being in red. The movement is housed in a swing-out Crescent YGF case that's clearly identified as a Ball model per the info imprinted on its inner cover:
I don't know whether this watch actually saw railroad service in Canada, but at least its 24-hour dial would have qualified it therefor (in addition to its other attributes).
So here's my 16-size 23j motor barrelled specimen manufactured circa 1911, having been made for Ball by Hamilton (known as Grade 999N). The watch sports a "Canadian" dial with marginal minutes figures, those at the fives being in red. The movement is housed in a swing-out Crescent YGF case that's clearly identified as a Ball model per the info imprinted on its inner cover:
I don't know whether this watch actually saw railroad service in Canada, but at least its 24-hour dial would have qualified it therefor (in addition to its other attributes).
Your comments are much appreciated Kent & thanks for posting another excerpt from that Ball Canadian catalog. That depicted case sure looks a lot like mine, I take it that Ball would have mandated common specs for any participating case manufacturer to follow.
Is the entirety of that catalog available somewhere for downloading?
The Ball Watch Co. had "Ball Model"-marked cases made to whatever specs that were specified in the order. I don't recall ever seeing a Canadian-made "Ball Model"-marked case or a Canadian-made stirrup bow case.
It will be; once I get a round tuit. Until then, these are the only two (well, three) pages I have that are prepared for posting. They're probably the most significant pages.
An 1892 Model 17J CPR with 24 hour dial with red 5 minute markers.
First of all, let me say that I realise that this is not a railroad watch. It is in fact a 14 size, Waltham Model 1874 with 16 jewels and a long tailed 'tadpole' regulator, S/N 1994499 that dates to c.1884 in a Crescent Watch Case Company gold filled hunter case. But it does have the Canadian Pacific Railway Time paper dial that was issued in 1886. This was made available as a short term measure until the ceramic 24 hour dials became available, not only to employees of the Company, but also to members of the public.
Nick23:
That's a great watch! Its good to see that some idiot didn't clean the 'ugly' sticker off of the dial in a misguided attempt to restore it to 'original' condition.
I wouldn't say that its not a railroad watch. I know of no Railroad Time Service Watch Rules from the 1880s that specified watch size. About the only real problem is that some roads required either a non-magnetic movement or a magnetically shielded case. However, there are lots of widely accepted 1880s railroad watches (i.e., BWR & Crescent St.) that didn't meet that requirement.
Did Canadian railway rules say anything about private labels?
From what I've seen with ones that supposedly were used by a few railmen in canada, nope. (but they would be approved movements without the pl)
I recently tried to acquire a 23 jewel zeinith Extra (jewelled barrel) Canadian pl movement only, but people dont seem to answer me on craigslist.
Dan
Yes, well sort of. Its not the private label that would have disqualified a watch, it was the lack of the manufacturer's name and standard grade name or number.
Its not known when rule #2 (below) first appeared, but I'd be willing to bet that it was at least 10-12 years prior to its appearance in the 1922 document excerpted.
The 16-size Hemsley's Canadian Canadian Railway shown below meets the maker's name/grade requirement, but it probably predates the requirement for the number of positions to which its adjusted to be stamped on the movement. Once originally accepted, it probably would have been grandfathered forward.
I have posted this one previously, but it fits here as well.
g
g
I know of no North American railroad time service rule that mentions the dial signature, thus it could possibly say anything.
The CPR rule didn't state that the movement be "... signed & marked by the manufacturer ..." but that it be stamped with "... the name of the maker, the name of (sic - presumably 'or') the number of the Grade ..." and if all other requirements were met it could be accepted into CPR time service.
The Hy Moser-built (grade: R.R. Model) Burlington shown below meets the requirements and was accepted into service. Some were still in use on CP Rail in 1978.
So it's a private label of a private label, I also noticed it was Swiss. Interesting watch
Kent.
Rob
i have a watch that looks very similar to this one but i cannot determine the watch company that made it as it has intricate carving script. looks like a Barral watch company. serial number 148972. farm house with church building carved on rear. does not work but i would consider having it repaired. looking to you guys for help. i obtained it from my father in laws father many years ago.
Mike,
I have a similar case, but gold filled with the maker's info. on the inside cover; the American Watch Case Co. of Toronto. They sold it as being dust proof with the screw-in bezel and back, but I don't think these type lasted very long in production. The bezel and particularly the back of mine can be fiddly to screw on and get off.
I have a similar case, but gold filled with the maker's info. on the inside cover; the American Watch Case Co. of Toronto. They sold it as being dust proof with the screw-in bezel and back, but I don't think these type lasted very long in production. The bezel and particularly the back of mine can be fiddly to screw on and get off.
Well, I was hoping to see someone post a Rockford but guess I have to do it. the examples below are 18s model 9 g935.
Here is a Canadian RR watch I've been looking for a long time , a 16 size Zenith "Superior" lever set with 21 jewels. Its the mate to the 18 size Superior shown in post #29. This one was retailed by D R Dingwall, a RR watch inspector in Winnipeg, photo below.
Compare the plate layouts of the 18 and 16 size, they are almost identical. The easiest way to tell them apart is to look for the location of the setting lever, the 16 size is at the 6 minute location, the 18 size is at the 11 minute mark.
Compare the plate layouts of the 18 and 16 size, they are almost identical. The easiest way to tell them apart is to look for the location of the setting lever, the 16 size is at the 6 minute location, the 18 size is at the 11 minute mark.I have this Waltham Canadian Pacific Railway
I have only one. An 18s model 1892 17j, Adj 5 pos. for the Canadian Railroad Time Service made about 1918-19 toward the end of the 18s model '92 production. The watch seems to be in it's original case a, "Fortune" swing out model made by the American Watch Case Co. of Toronto.
Here's another Hampden that seems 'right'...
(but not it's case).
SN 958755
ADJUSTED
(but not it's case).
SN 958755
ADJUSTED
And another Model 5, Seth Thomas.
SN 224394, PL marked ADJUSTED
and with
J. A. MORROW / JEWELER / PARRY SOUND / ONT.
on both dial and movement
Parry Sound was (and is) close to
Parry Island, which became a major
train depot, at about the time this
movement was manufactured.
Once again, the case had a previous
occupant... but may be the first for
this ST.
SN 224394, PL marked ADJUSTED
and with
J. A. MORROW / JEWELER / PARRY SOUND / ONT.
on both dial and movement
Parry Sound was (and is) close to
Parry Island, which became a major
train depot, at about the time this
movement was manufactured.
Once again, the case had a previous
occupant... but may be the first for
this ST.
Waltham 23 J Vangard Model 1908, with wind indicator and factory cased. SN 18131820 dates watch to approx 1911
.
.
Sangamo Special 23J Model 9 SN 2798555 dates watch to approx 1915. I recased this watch. The original case was a Fortune swing-out which was damaged
Bunn Special 23J Model 6 SN 2468803 manufactured approx. 1912. Fortune swing-out case seems original to the watch
Hamilton 936 SN 236328. Hamilton ledger says sold June 3, 1903 to “Montreal” – presumably the Montreal Watch Company. I can’t find much about Angus McFee; only that he was born in Scotland in 1838 and a jeweler beginning 1860.
This watch is well before Canadian Pacific’s 1922 requirement for maker’s name on the movement. I'm guessing this would have qualified for railroad use when it was sold.
Halligan notes for this grade (“Changes in Manufacture”) indicate 5 adjustments beginning in 1906. But there’s no doubt about this (1903) watch: twice marked “ADJUSTED 5 POSITIONS”.
Is there any significance to the marking “RAILROAD SPECIAL”?
Last three photos courtesy Jones and Horan
This watch is well before Canadian Pacific’s 1922 requirement for maker’s name on the movement. I'm guessing this would have qualified for railroad use when it was sold.
Halligan notes for this grade (“Changes in Manufacture”) indicate 5 adjustments beginning in 1906. But there’s no doubt about this (1903) watch: twice marked “ADJUSTED 5 POSITIONS”.
Is there any significance to the marking “RAILROAD SPECIAL”?
Last three photos courtesy Jones and Horan
Last edited:
Jim. My daughter attended the Sir James Whitney School for the deaf in Belleville Ontario. This was a Grand Trunk Railway town and the railway station still exists and is used by Via Rail. Your watch would have certainly been approved at the time of manufacture by the Grand Trunk. Their published standards from approx. 1898 were 17 jewels, adjusted to temperature, patent regulator, and capable of keeping time within 30 seconds per week.
Hamilton 950B SN S1921, ca. 1942-1043. Just back from overhaul.
- Gold train
- Enamel 24 hour dial
- I’ve read these hands are called “extra heavy whip” or “closed diamond.” Any thoughts?
- Model 17 case
The NAWCC “Hamilton Serial Number Search” has no detail about where it went from the factory and the case is obviously not Canadian. So I have no hard evidence this ever made it to Canada.
If it was sold from the factory in this case (i.e., as a complete watch), would it have been subject to Canadian duty?
- Gold train
- Enamel 24 hour dial
- I’ve read these hands are called “extra heavy whip” or “closed diamond.” Any thoughts?
- Model 17 case
The NAWCC “Hamilton Serial Number Search” has no detail about where it went from the factory and the case is obviously not Canadian. So I have no hard evidence this ever made it to Canada.
If it was sold from the factory in this case (i.e., as a complete watch), would it have been subject to Canadian duty?
Last edited:
Shucks... looks a lot like an earlier 581A dial.
See post 7 here: Hamilton Dials: What was, was not, and was again, sometimes | NAWCC Forums
See post 7 here: Hamilton Dials: What was, was not, and was again, sometimes | NAWCC Forums
I came across this thread and decided to revive it. One of my sons was looking at
my watches and said I love those Canadian dials.
Here are two (both 19j) fairly recent (October and December) additions to my Canadian dial watches.
The Crescent St. in hand is really a stunner.
Rob
my watches and said I love those Canadian dials.
Here are two (both 19j) fairly recent (October and December) additions to my Canadian dial watches.
The Crescent St. in hand is really a stunner.
Rob
Waltham model 1892 movements are stunning. I especially appreciate one fronted with Waltham's Canadian dial.
Here is one of mine.
Here is one of mine.
Neat watch!
Regarding the "Adjusted 5 Positions" marking, it seems that Canadian RRs required such a marking prior to most American ones. For example, in the so-called Elgin Master Grade books there are several mentions of RR grade mvts being specially marked such for watches sent to Canada.
Can't get too much better than a Vanguard 23j 92 Hunter with Canadian dial 
Rob
That may be the King of Canadian dialed watches!
Rob
I found an old picture of my 21j Vanguard #6027102 (1st run, open face).
I'm curious (and admittedly lazy because I haven't searched for Canadian Railroad watch requirements), but were hunting case watches accepted on some Canadian Railways? I just got a Waltham from my Dad (that I bought for my Mom to give him on a birthday sometime in the late 1980's). It screams Railroad watch (railroad approved movement, lever set, railroad dial and hands) EXCEPT for it's hunting case! Though I can't imagine the preference, I'm guessing someone wanted a railroad style watch in a non-railroad approved hunting case as their personal (not railway-work related) watch?
Sharing pictures with apologies if I am swaying from the focus of the thread!
Sharing pictures with apologies if I am swaying from the focus of the thread!
RE: "were hunting case watches accepted on some Canadian Railways?"
PS Thank you Kent and Ed for all the great reasearch!
Rob
PS Thank you Kent and Ed for all the great reasearch!
Rob
Last edited:
Thanks Rob! Goes to show you...if it looks like a duck...
I had (until now) presumed any hunting case watches were not acceptable as Railroad Approved. Interesting how the pendant location was a determining factor.
There seems to be more misinformation on the internet about
what a Standard watch is (one that would have been accepted for
use in RR Time service) than there is accurate information.
Rob
what a Standard watch is (one that would have been accepted for
use in RR Time service) than there is accurate information.
Rob
A few myths that are out there are that Pendant set, Hunting case watches, Private
Labels, Roman numeral dials would not be approved for service. There was a time and place
for all of the above. Railroad Watch .
Rob
Zenith Extra R.R.56
I've been looking for one of these puppies for a while, one finally followed me home:
I've been looking for one of these puppies for a while, one finally followed me home:
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