A Few Canadian Railroad Watches - Please Add Yours

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Leigh Callaway, Oct 20, 2019.

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  1. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    Hamilton 936 sold Aug 20, 1902 to the Montreal Watch Company, Posted earlier. The Canadian Pacific Railway arrived in Portage la Prairie in 1881, the same year the town was incorporated. Per Wikipedia, the town was “a regional hub for agriculture, retail, manufacturing and transportation in central Manitoba.”
    1902 936.jpg

    Hamilton 990 sold Jan 26, 1910 to James A. Pitts of Montreal
    1910 990.jpg

    Hamilton 996 ca. 1918 Posted earlier. No detailed info in NAWCC serial number search. Banner case by P.W. Ellis & Co., Toronto
    1918 996.jpg

    Hamilton 992 ca 1926 No detailed info in NAWCC serial number search. Fortune case by Canadian AWCCo
    1926 992.jpg

    Hamilton 992B ca. 1946 enamel dial. No detailed info in the NAWCC serial number search. Sturdy Empress case made in Canada
    1946 992B.jpg
     
  2. Daverooni

    Daverooni New Member

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    Great post! I would love to see more of these, especially any railway watches from E P Battley, a jeweller from my hometown of Sarnia, Ontario. Below is a trenchwatch I saw online. Sarnia was a rail hub, especially due to the 1890 St. Clair Tunnel that connects Sarnia with Port Huron Michigan. 8F505E30-D182-4B54-BEE7-91204C83C7CC.jpeg
    09BA6949-442A-4261-881C-E2F295668B25.jpeg
     
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  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I've posted this one before in the past

    IMG_6314 (2).jpg waltham 1901 8.jpg
    waltham 1901 88.jpg IMG_4480 (2).JPG
    waltham 1901 4.jpg


    Rob
     
  4. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Time for a Seth Thomas.

    DSC_0001t.jpg DSC_0019a.jpg
     
  5. Christopher Burris

    Christopher Burris Registered User
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    G.H.Taylor, Charlottetown.PE.I (Prince Edward Island) an Illinois Grade 69, 17 Jewels.
    359 dial.jpg 359 movement.jpg
     
  6. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I do have a bunch of these Canadian dials. Here is a Hamilton that I purchased recently from Jim H.
    at the National Convention this year(also previously posted).

    20190629_172455.jpg 20190629_172728.jpg
    20190629_172809.jpg



    Rob
     
  7. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    The picture of the three 18-size Longines watches has been posted many times; that of their little brother (the 16-size Longines) and the Touchon, not so much.

    The BWR has been posted before also. It doesn't look Canadian until you look at the case markings.

    Hemsley's_Canadian_Railway.jpg 16S_19J_Hemsleys_Canadian_Railway_Longines_1567260.JPG 16S_19J_Hemsleys_Canadian_Railway_Touchon_118056.jpg 16S_21J_BWR_42282315.jpg
     
  8. Rhett Lucke

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    A private label 18 size, 17J, Grade 938 Hamilton marked Canadian Pacific.

    EAFD9CFD-A41B-4DE0-B24A-C145082565EB.jpeg CE0A0F1F-245E-42E1-A259-F60192AB76B6.jpeg
     
  9. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Maybe I am misunderstanding the OP's intentions for this thread. Does "Canadian Railroad Watches" mean those approved for actual service on the railroad? Or as some show here what I call private label dials and watches?

    If you refer to this (A Short History of Railroad Watches) both the CPR and CNR adapted 24 hour dials as early as 1883.

    I have seen examples of an inner circle sticker applied to 12 hour dials making them 24 hour dials.

    Like Rob states in his post #6 I also have quite a few 24 hour Canadian dials. Seth Thomas dials are some of my favorite ones, the company had 7 different 24 hour dials.
     
  10. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I like Canadian dials on all pocket watches. I really like the Swiss pocket watches, railroad, that were used on Canadian railways, example, Longines, one i have is 17 jewels, 16 sz, and also my Elco timer.
     
  11. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    #11 Kent, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
    I think that you are ignoring the fact that private label watches were accepted into Railroad Time Service in the US and Canada into the 20th century; as late as past 1922 if the movement also carried the manufacturer's name and standard grade marking (which both of the 16-size Hemsley's Canadian Railway marked watches shown above do). R. Hemsley, a CPR and Grand Trunk Time Inspector, marketed the Hemsley's Canadian Railway as a railroad watch; I'm sure he and his inspectors accepted them into service. However, I agree that the hands on the Touchon would have to be changed.

    1899_Apr-26_Hemsley_Watch_Inspector_GTR_&_CPR.jpg Hemsley_RR_Watches.jpg 1922_Dec_15_CPR_Watch_Specs_Larry_Buchan.jpg

    I wouldn't refer to "A Short History of Railroad Watches" for anything. It is full of so much misinformation that a point-by-point correction isn't worth the effort. I didn't see a single reference to back up the author's assertions. It relies heavily on Ball's fairy tale that claims (in a 1910 Sunday Supplement interview) that Ball created Time Service inspection at the behest of the LS&MS in 1891 following the Kipton wreck. In fact, Time Service inspection can be traced to at least the early 1850s. More importantly, Ball's 1891 rules for the LS&MS are very similar to 1887 Wabash Western rule (provided by Charles K. Giles of Giles, Bro. & Co.. You can look both documents up in the Railroad Time Service Watch Rules.

    One example of the misinformation contained in "A Short History of Railroad Watches" is an 1893 requirement that watches be adjusted in five positions. In fact, there are many examples of rules from around 1899-1900 (and 1921 on the AT&SF) in which adjustment is required in only three positions. Again, look through the Railroad Time Service Watch Rules.

    1910_Jan-10_Morrow_Interview_LR.JPG 1921_Jul_AT&SF_Rules.jpg

    Regarding requirement for a 24-hour dial we have this report on Canadian practice:
    "It was in 1969 that CP Rail established 24-hour time as standard, system wide. At that time, all standard clocks used in CP divisional points and way stations were converted to uniform 24-hour dials. My understanding is that, prior to '69, CP east of the Manitoba, Ontario border used 12-hour time, while CP west of that border used 24-hour time. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, all railroad approved watches in Canada have had 24-hour dials."
    Courtesy Doug Sinclair, posted on NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board 23-May-05

    Yeah, I've seen these also. I thought that they were real quirky until the June 10, 1886 CPR notice came to my attention.

    1886_Jun-10_CPR_24_Hr_Time_&_Sticker.JPG
     
  12. Jerry Treiman

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    I found this Waltham 1892 model Crescent St. in Vancouver, Canada in 1971.
    92_CSt_d.jpg 92_CSt_m.jpg

    The dial on this 23j Vanguard is not original to this movement, but it sure is lovely -
    92_Vanguard_f.jpg

    ... and I only found this 21j Vanguard in 2016. I fell in love with the radial hour numerals.
    7011922f2.jpg 7011922mobl2.jpg
     
  13. Greg Frauenhoff

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    I posted this previously in the Aurora private label thread.

    18s "New Model, mvt #55849, made for Charles Stark of Toronto, railroad grade No. 77. Finished 3/20/89, sold 8/28/89. Approx. 1790 mvts were made by Aurora for Stark in 15 different grades. ETP of this variant is 90. 1887 Stark catalog page (Univ. of Toronto digitized collection) shows description of No. 77 at bottom center.

    378220-0991d134f1695c873b65188fb5fb038d.jpg 378221-1f8aa9d08df7e3494f8ed2c127aa7ddd.jpg 378222-10510ddb7efd997c7910916c99ccfb44.jpg 378223-89a7d89730a465de2754f40160edd189.jpg
     
  14. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    The intentions of the “OP” (if I am that person) were:
    1) to provide a place to show off a subset of participants’ prized collections, and
    2) to document and illustrate that subset.
    Many thanks to those who have responded so far. This organization and its Member Forum have no peer.
    And yes I am proud of my examples, particularly the ones showing wear from decades of use on the Canadian rail system.
     
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  15. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Like Greg I previously posted my Aurora in his private label thread.

    I do have a fondness for the Charles Stark 24 hour dials.

    DSC_0016a.jpg
     
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  16. Keith H

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    HampdenDial.jpg Hampden Mvmt.jpg I have posted this Hampden before as well.
    Keith
     
  17. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Well I guess I'd better chip in here.

    This is my 16-size 21-jewel Illinois Bunn Special sporting a "Canadian" dial. Manufactured in 1921, this railroad grade watch was acquired from a fellow Canadian, residing in the Maritimes.

    Illinois Bunn Special_.jpg
     
  18. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Here's one of my favorite Burlingtons along with an Elco and a Bedforde (not necessarily the same one mentioned in Peter's menu):

    Hy_Moser_Burlington_1729678.jpg 1978_Nov-20_CP_Rail_4_Watches_in_Use.jpg 16S_21J_Elco_2205.jpg Bedforde_10239.JPG
     
  19. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I'll bet you thought that Regina watches were lower grade and wouldn't be accepted into railroad service:

    Regina_18S_21J_2392256.jpg
     
  20. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    FWIW, the introduction of 24 hr dials on various American makes appears to date to early 1884. Some were the more common dual track styles (1-12 and 13-24) but some were the single track styles (1-24 with special motion work). They were not specifically noted (at this time) as being for use in Canada.
     
  21. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Kent, I was aware that the Canadian Pacific Rwy listed Omega "Brandt" as an acceptable watch, having 19 or 23 jewels.

    I wasn't aware that the Omega "Regina" of 21j was also acceptable. Was it so to the CPR &/or to some other Canadian railway company?
     
  22. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Here is another one. This one I bought from Don Barrett at the National in 2018.
    I have also posted this one before. 18s Elgin grade 240

    1903 elgin 240.jpeg 1903 b w raymond 19 j 240 (2).jpeg


    Rob
     
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  23. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Almost certain this one qualifies. There's the 'Canadian' dial, but also the date of the inscription inside the back cover is in DD/MM/YYYY format, AND to top it all off, the seller was in Canada.

    The movement is a 590, made for only a year or so around 1945-46.

    590.jpg 590 mvt.jpg
     
  24. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    According to a conversation with Kathy Pritchard (author of the two volume set of books on Swiss watch manufacturers) at the 2005 Ft. Lauderdale NAWCC convention (I showed her the watch and her immediate response was, "Oh, Regina made this before Omega bought them."), Omega bought out Regina in about 1912. After that point, Omega marketed a lesser grade of its watches in Canada under the Regina name.

    I don't have any documentation showing that the Regina watch pictured above was accepted into service. It just has the features that would seem to let it be. Its the same thing with the Gallet-Eaton Interocean grade (below).

    Eaton_23J_16S_137700_D.jpg Eaton_23j_18s_148850.jpg
     
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  25. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    I have posted this watch before. Here is another Hampden.

    DSC_0005ae.jpg DSC_0001 (2)b.jpg
     
  26. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Thanks Kent & this reminds me of something that CPR Ass't Time Master Peter Kushnir (R.I.P.) had written about. You'll recall that various of the CPR time inspectors in the prairie provinces had taken it upon themselves to accept watches for railroad service, which watches had not been listed by head office as acceptable therefor. Perhaps high jewel count Omega Reginas were included in that undocumented bunch. It's understandable that an inspector would be receptive to accepting any high quality watch otherwise meeting generally acceptable requirements for standard watches, especially when none of the "brass" were anywheres nearby.
     
  27. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Speaking of Swiss watches, Canadian RR watches, & Peter Kushnir, the latter was instrumental in working with Zenith & the CPR to develop the Zenith Extra R.R. 56 as an acceptable watch for the Canadian Pacific line.

    Apparently only about 1,000 of the Zenith Extra R.R. 56 were produced. I've had better luck locating hen's teeth than one of those watches.

    Does anyone have a Zenith Extra R.R. 56 to share here?
     
  28. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    Ask, and ye shall receive.....

    EBU 16156 Zenith RR 56 21J OF Case Back.jpg EBU 16156 Zenith RR 56 21J OF Dial.jpg EBU 16156 Zenith RR 56 21J OF Mvt.jpg
     
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  29. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    And here is another Zenith....

    EBU 18112 Zenith Superior 21J OF Case Back.jpg EBU 18112 Zenith Superior 21J OF Dial.jpg EBU 18112 Zenith Superior 21J OF Mvt.jpg
     
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  30. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    And another ....

    EBU 18182 Zenith Extra 23J OF Case Back.jpg EBU 18182 Zenith Extra 23J OF Dial.jpg EBU 18182 Zenith Extra 23J OF Mvt.jpg
     
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  31. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    And one more (last one, I promise).....

    EBU 16245 Zenith Extra 23J OF Case Back.jpg EBU 16245 Zenith Extra 23J OF Dial.jpg EBU 16245 Zenith Extra 23J OF Mvt.jpg
     
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  32. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Thank you rrwatch!

    Those Zeniths are impressive looking timepieces, esp. that in post #28, thanks again ...
     
  33. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    You're probably thinking of that 1978 memo in Post #18 (reposted here).

    Regarding the Regina in Post #19 (also reposted here), its not the 21 jewels that would have gotten it accepted (17 jewels would have been enough when this watch was built - prior to 1912); its the fact that its marked to have been adjusted to 5 positions.

    Its acceptance would have had nothing to do with whether or not the brass were around. Peter was writing in the 1970s when CP Rail listed specific watches; rules in the early part of the 20th century usually allowed for watches of equal or higher grade then the listed examples of watches to be accepted. In 1922, the CPR didn't list watches, it listed features. This list, from Post #11, is posted again below.

    1978_Nov-20_CP_Rail_4_Watches_in_Use.jpg Regina_18S_21J_2392256.jpg 1922_Dec_15_CPR_Watch_Specs_Larry_Buchan.jpg
     
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  34. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Peter once told me that he was Zenith's Canadian representative in 1956 when he recommended that they produce a watch with features he listed that would be accepted into railroad service. That watch was the Extra RR 56; Another one is shown below.

    The surviving examples that Ed and I have listed in our data base show that the estimated first 400 - there could be 500 (4,679,301 - 4,679,700) have marginal minute dials and the second group of 500 (4,732,001 - 4,732,500) have the same dial without the marginal minute figures.

    Zenith_Extra_RR_56.jpg
     
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  35. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Hi Kent, thanks for your highly informative (as per usual) post.

    But now I am somewhat confused as to the earliest known listing of CPR-approved watches. That's because a certain Harold Clitheroe had published an article in 2000 which claimed that there was a CPR approved list of pocket watches dated 1899. Here's a link to his article, as well as a direct link to the 1899 table of approved CPR watches as per that article:

    Railroad Time

    Make

    So did the CPR list of features from 1922 speak to its internal timekeeping staff whose role was to vet watches for inclusion in an approved list from "head office" which would be circulated amongst the various local inspectors, or was that 1922 document speaking directly to various & sundry local time inspectors who had the discretion to accept watches meeting the 1922 criteria?

    The 1922 blurb does open with "The Standards adopted by this Company are grades of movements that have been approved and listed by the Chief Inspector of Time Services which are equal to or above ..." (my emphasis)

    Anyways I'd appreciate your comments esp. respecting the 1899 Clitheroe listing, continued thanks ...
     
  36. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I knew of one person that had a Zenith Extra and he sold his not long ago. Its a watch not seen that often.
     
  37. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Despite his good intentions of writing an informative article on railroad watches, Harold fell into the trap of (apparently) depending upon secondary sources of information, especially ones that aren't traceable back to primary sources (i.e. failure to cite specific primary sources or secondary sources that do). The result is that much misinformation is presented to be repeated by others.

    This too is based upon, what I described in Post #11 as, "It relies heavily on Ball's fairy tale that claims (in a 1910 Sunday Supplement interview) that Ball created Time Service inspection at the behest of the LS&MS in 1891 following the Kipton wreck." Ball is the only person who, 19 years after the fact, asserted that the the wreck was attributed to a watch being four minutes slow. Most accounts don't even mention the watch. No record has ever appeared of the (Ball mentioned) inquiry. Nor has any Post Office Department report on the wreck seen the light of day. The only official document available is reprinted in "The Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway Company’s 1891 Disaster at Kipton, Ohio—Revisited," William M. Hoffer, NAWCC Bulletin No. 346, October 2003, pp. 563-572 (available online to NAWCC members who are logged in), which contains the text of the Ohio State Inspector's report on the wreck - it fails to cite the watch being four minutes slow as a contributing factor.

    Here's another part that ignores reality:

    '... in 1893, the General Railroad Timepiece Standards were adopted, which mandated the following standards for railroad watches:

    " .... be open faced, size 18 or 16, have a minimum of 17 jewels, adjusted to at least 5 positions, keep time accurately to within a gain or loss of only 30 seconds per week, adjusted to temperatures of 34 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, have a double roller, steel escape wheel, lever set, micrometric regulator, winding stem at 12 o'clock, grade on back plate, use plain Arabic numbers printed bold and black on a white dial, and have bold black hands..."

    These were the base standards for a railroad-grade watch, ...'

    These standards came to pass, but most of them about 15 years later, around 1906-1908, refer to the Railroad Watch Encyclopedia article for details.

    The "1899 table of approved CPR watches as per that article ..." is ls laughably inaccurate. The Elgin Veritas grades didn't exist at that time; the 18-size being introduced in 1901, the 16-size some years after. The same goes for Hamilton's Nos. 992 and 950 grades; and Illinois' 16-size Bunn, Bunn Special and Sangamo Special grades. South Bend and the E. Howard Watch Co. didn't exist in 1899, coming into being about three years later. So, you can't trust that list.


    I believe that the local inspectors had the authority to accept watches into service that met that list of criteria.

    1891_Apr-18_Kipton_Wreck_Postal_Workers_Killed.jpg 1891_Apr-19_Kipton_Ind.jpg 1891_Apr-23_Crushed_Like_Rats.jpg 1891_Apr-28_Kipton_Ind_RR_Blames_Engineer.jpg 1891_April_19_kipton.jpg 1891_May-13_Kipton_Was_RRers_Responsibility.jpg 1891_May-27_Kipton_Was_RR_Responsibility.jpg 1892_Feb_Kipton_Wreck_RRers_Responsible.jpg 1901_Mar-6_Veritas_Introduction.jpg
     
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  38. D.th.munroe

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  39. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I guess that this would be a good time to post this watch:

    18S_17J_CPR_10033659.jpg
     
  40. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    And, I don't think one of these has been posted yet:

    18S_19J_Omega_CCR_3502558.jpg 16S_19J_Omega_CCR_OF_5226475.jpg
     
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  41. Bill Manders

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    #41 Bill Manders, Oct 28, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
    Here are a few of my swiss ones that are at least RR grade, and some might be questionable for approval, but they definitely meet the standards of the day.

    Burl Hy Moser 1729700 001.jpg Burl Hy Moser 1729700 002.jpg CPR Mdl 1883 001.jpg CPR Mdl 1883 004.jpg crts 1892-1 (1).jpg crts 1892-1 (2).jpg Eaton 21j 001.jpg Eaton 21j 005.jpg Ex. Leader dial.jpg Ex. Leader mvmt [].jpg

    The CPR is lever set, but the CRTS is stem set. The Eaton Gallet is not the Interocean, but is lever, 21 J, and adjusted to 5 positions, The Hy Moser is also 21 j, lever, and set to 5 positions The Longines is lever set, 19 j, and , 5 positions. I also have several 92 walthams with Can dials,, plus Hamiltons, and Elgins used in Canadian service.
    All these watches have been posted over the years, on this MB.
    Bill
     
  42. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Very nice Bill, thanks for sharing.
     
  43. Paul Sullivan

    Paul Sullivan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 15, 2011
    568
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    Retired.
    Massachusetts
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    A 17J 18s model 1892 CRTS ser. no. 22017547 (from the '92s last run) made iabout 1918. The swing ring GF case is an American W.C.Co. (Montreal) Fortune model.

    collage.jpg
     
  44. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

    Feb 15, 2018
    283
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    Full time clock and watchmaker
    BC Canada
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  45. viclip

    viclip Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 20, 2018
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    Thanks for this.

    The well-known CPR timekeeper Peter Kushnir who authored the linked article, at page 190 seems to indicate that starting in 1899 there was a list of specifically approved watches. He then includes such a list dated as of 1899 further on.

    Although not all of the watches so listed were in production yet in 1899, I wonder if that might not simply be a consolidated list. It would have made eminent sense for the CPR central timekeeping office to evaluate newly issued "railroad" watches as they came out onto the market & to add approved ones to the list accordingly over time. Same idea as a consolidated plumbing or safety code booklet which must be updated to take into account changes.

    Regrettably the author passed away recently.
     
    luvsthetick likes this.
  46. Chuck Hartzell

    Chuck Hartzell Registered User

    Sep 7, 2010
    12
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    This was a nice Fredonia that I wish I never sold.

    _MG_6661.JPG _MG_6660.JPG
     
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  47. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
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    Being a 7-jewel watch that lacks a patent regulator and an "Adjusted" marking, how does this fit in the realm of Canadian Railroad Watches?
     
  48. Hans van den Berg

    Hans van den Berg Registered User

    Feb 4, 2011
    68
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    The Netherlands, Europe
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    Ball ORRS 19 jewels B222253 ca 1910 in a Fortune case. Unfortunately, the dial has some problems.

    DSC_0003.jpg DSC_0013.jpg DSC_0012.jpg
     
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  49. Chuck Hartzell

    Chuck Hartzell Registered User

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Sorry Kent you are correct! should have looked closer to the post. Thought they were showing 24 hour dials.
     
  50. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
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    Order for some 18s Hampden grades engraved Canadian Pacific (May 1888, J. C. Perry memo booklet). Note "24 hour dials" but no mention that dials are to be specially named.

    img320.jpg
     
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