992E ca. 1938:

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PapaLouies

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Hamilton 992E, 2629929.
IMG_2049.JPG IMG_2080.JPG IMG_2050.JPG
Balance Wheel prototype for the 992B.

IMG_2052.JPG
Case from Grade 974 ca. 1912.
IMG_2051.JPG
Dials:
fred h dial p2[1].jpg IMG_2084.JPG fred h dial p1[1].jpg
Please note, the partial truncated toe of the 5 on my dial and the #536.
I think it likely the same templets, except for the Names, were used to create my 992E dial and the early 992B's.
An interesting aside: In 1951 Hamilton offered the Elinvar Extra hairspring for the 992E.
Regards, P/L


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Jim Haney

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The 992E was not produced in 1951, Their last year was 1939.

If you meant to say the 992B ,It started with the Elinvar Extra in 1940, thus white color. The 992E were dyed blue
 

PapaLouies

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The 992E was not produced in 1951, Their last year was 1939.

If you meant to say the 992B ,It started with the Elinvar Extra in 1940, thus white color. The 992E were dyed blue
You better read my post #1 again.
P/L
 

terry hall

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But... here's a study for you in regards to dials...
it is what i have available, unsure if more at at NAWCC Library...
ham519dial  HG.jpg ham536.jpg
 
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PapaLouies

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Hi Terry,
I hope to clear this up.
Please note my photo of the #536 dial is not a BLUEPRINT but a photo of a 992B dial with the Toe of the 5 truncated. The Toe of the 5 on my 992E dial is also truncated.
fred h dial p1[1].jpg IMG_2084.JPG
I note on your drawings of the #536 and #519 dials, the Toe of the 5 is complete.
So I think it likely the early templets for my 992E and early 992B's were not made duplicating your drawings.
To clarify my statement that in 1951 Hamilton offered the Elinvar Extra hairspring for the 992E, is a statement about the hairspring not the movement.

The Hamilton dials are far to precise for the 5 to be unintended!
Regards, P/L
 

terry hall

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i would attribute the difference to manufacturing tolerances... hard to explain in any other manner (and unsure of the importance)
and for a point, not all 'revision levels' of the drawings are known or available, these were 'found' in closet at NAWCC Library with other documents.

A similar situation to the '5' has been noted on the Railway Special dials for the "10"digit, where the zero has been 'clipped' by the cut for the center sink section... typically seen on immediate post WWII examples.

Again, unsure of 'significance'

Here again is something for your study, I will direct you to about page 3 or page 4 of the link attachment
if you'll noitice it is dated 1947, ahead of your 1951 reference, and after introduction of the 992B.

In short the use of Elinvar Extra was well in place before 1951... and the 992E was well out of production at that time....

now one possibility regarding your statement and it may be completely true... is that hamilton offered as a 'material' item for repair, the Elinvar Extra Hairsping... now that phrasing of the statement has an entirely different meaning .......

and i do not know if the material catalog at that will back up the premise..........
 

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179

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From the 1935 Hamilton Material Catalog pg. 14, 16s Elinvar Parts, Cat. No. 605 Spring- hair, breguet. At this time this would be swiss Elinvar. From the 1953 Hamilton Material Catalog pg. 22, Grade 992E Cat.No. 606 Spring, hair. Elinvar Extra. Same page grade 992B Cat. No.675 Spring hair Elinvar Extra. 606and 675 would be the same alloy with different collets and studs.
 
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PapaLouies

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From the 1935 Hamilton Material Catalog pg. 14, 16s Elinvar Parts, Cat. No. 605 Spring- hair, breguet. At this time this would be swiss Elinvar. From the 1953 Hamilton Material Catalog pg. 22, Grade 992E Cat.No. 606 Spring, hair. Elinvar Extra. Same page grade 992B Cat. No.675 Spring hair Elinvar Extra. 606and 675 would be the same alloy with different collets and studs.
Thanks 179,
The 1951 Hamilton Watch Material Catalog reads the same as the 1953 Catalog.
Regards, P/L
 

PapaLouies

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I'm at a loss to understand the confusion about my Statement " In 1951 Hamilton offered the Elinvar Extra hairspring for the 992E."
This does not state Hamilton was producing the 992E in 1951, but simply that they were offering an upgrade Elinvar Extra hairspring for existing 992E's.
I don't think manufacturing tolerances are the cause of the variations I've pointed out, but are simply the direct result of the configuration of the templet being used at that time.
Regards, P/L
 

179

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P/L, what has me confused in post #1, is Balance Wheel prototype for the 992B. The watch to me appears to be a correct mid-thirties 992E with blue Elinvar hair spring in an a case approx. 25 years earlier.
 
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PapaLouies

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179, please note the configuration of my 992E Balance Wheel is the same as the 992B Balance Wheel including the same location of the 4 mean-time screws.
Nothing to do with the hairspring.
I think the development of the 992B Balance Wheel began with the 992E Balance Wheel, thus prototype.
Regards, P/L
 

SpringDriven

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179, please note the configuration of my 992E Balance Wheel is the same as the 992B Balance Wheel including the same location of the 4 mean-time screws.
Nothing to do with the hairspring.
I think the development of the 992B Balance Wheel began with the 992E Balance Wheel, thus prototype.
Regards, P/L
Is it not possible that the balance wheel itself was replaced sometime in the 50's or later as part of a service? Perhaps the spare stock of 992E balance wheels were converted over and manufactured in a similar matter to the B wheels? Meaning the spare parts changed based on manufacturing differences? They ran out or discontinued the hairsprings, why not the balance too?

In my 1961 Hamilton parts catalog they list one Balance Wheel for the 950E, 950B, 992E, 992B, part number 112040, with an old part number of 600.

I think that would indicate the replacement balance being the same E vs B?
 
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PapaLouies

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Is it not possible that the balance wheel itself was replaced sometime in the 50's or later as part of a service? Perhaps the spare stock of 992E balance wheels were converted over and manufactured in a similar matter to the B wheels? Meaning the spare parts changed based on manufacturing differences? They ran out or discontinued the hairsprings, why not the balance too?

In my 1961 Hamilton parts catalog they list one Balance Wheel for the 950E, 950B, 992E, 992B, part number 112040, with an old part number of 600.

I think that would indicate the replacement balance being the same E vs B?
In 1951 the Elinvar Extra hairspring was offered as a stand alone item for the 992E.
179, Prototype: The original or model on which something is based or formed.
Regards, P/L
 
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179

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A prototype can be 1 or several, not 63,497 watches. An example of this is the 992 60 hour prototypes Hamilton r&d made.
 
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PapaLouies

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Hamilton 992 Movement ca. 1925.
IMG_2140.JPG IMG_2139.JPG IMG_2138.JPG
Apparently the 992 and the 992E have the same hairspring attachment.
I think it likely that some time after 1951 an Elinvar Extra 992E hairspring was added to this movement.
Regards, P/L
 

Jim Haney

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I always ask myself why your threads turn into rambling and no one is really sure what you are seeking an answer for?

Is it because you do not ask exactly what your question is ? Is it because you keep adding pictures that don't reference what you posted about.?

This post starts off with a statement that you have a 992E with a 992B prototype balance ?

The 992B balance had different studs on the hairspring, so that shoots down your statement.

You say that the 1951 Hamilton material catalog offered the Elinvar Extra hair spring for the 992E, WELL Partial true, they did offer it as a hairspring only, but to make it work you had to order a stud & collet for it. Part #607#350

You statement in the 1st post about the 992E having a prototype balance is not correct, It looks like a 992B wheel with a replacement hairspring with old style stud.

I will agree with your last post and statement because this could be done.

I am not going to even get into the Dials:eek:

DSCN5016.JPG
 

PapaLouies

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My posts in this thread are simply my observations and thanks to all who have responded in kind!
Regards, P/L
 

179

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When the Hamilton material dept. ran out of blue steel hair springs, they supplied 18s and 16s Elinvar Extra springs to customers for repair. The problem is a bi-metallic wheel and an alloy spring is not the best combo.
 

terry hall

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Hamilton 992 Movement ca. 1925.
View attachment 647487 View attachment 647488 View attachment 647489
Apparently the 992 and the 992E have the same hairspring attachment.
I think it likely that some time after 1951 an Elinvar Extra 992E hairspring was added to this movement.
Regards, P/L
Re: Italics
You'd need to see the material listing see if the 992b and 992e share the same part number for collet and stud....
Re: bold
Only the watchmaker knows for sure !! Do not seen the 'advantage' here with a compensation balance...
and 'why' 1951, did you not learn from the 1947 technical bulletin?

also from PM regarding "if" the hairsrping came with collet and stud... as shown in Jim's post from the material catalog, if it don't state it, don't assume it... I personally do not know.
 

PapaLouies

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To me the term Balance Wheel does not include the collet, stud, hairspring, balance staff or the roller table, etc.
unless so stated.

IMG_2052.JPG
Balance Wheel prototype for the 992B.
Regards, P/L
 

Jim Haney

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So what is your Point? Do you think that the balance wheel is a Prototype?

I don't think so. Someone has used a 992B wheel and used a Hairspring with the small middle barrel stud to work on the 992E.

Why would you think Hamilton made a prototype wheel for It? If it was even a remote chance for that, it would be documented by Hamilton.

The 992E was a obsolete watch by 1939,so why in the world would anybody be trying to prototype anything when they had a completely new system with the 992B ?
 

PapaLouies

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Re: Italics
You'd need to see the material listing see if the 992b and 992e share the same part number for collet and stud....
Re: bold
Only the watchmaker knows for sure !! Do not seen the 'advantage' here with a compensation balance...
and 'why' 1951, did you not learn from the 1947 technical bulletin?

also from PM regarding "if" the hairsrping came with collet and stud... as shown in Jim's post from the material catalog, if it don't state it, don't assume it... I personally do not know.
Thanks Terry, but it's the 992 and 992E.
I've read the 1947 technical bulletin and I have a copy.
Please note on page 3, it states " All Hamilton Watches Are Now Equipped with the new Elinvar Extra Hairspring."
I fail to see how this would include the 992E since they were no longer producing them.
Now on the other hand, the 1951 Hamilton Material Catalog lists the Elinvar Extra hairspring for the 992E for the first time, thus my use of the 1951 date.
Regards, P/L
 

terry hall

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Good luck with whatever point you are trying to make... damned If i can understand your train of thought.....
 

PapaLouies

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Good luck with whatever point you are trying to make... damned If i can understand your train of thought.....
Maybe this will help. I tried to point out that after 1951 with the Elinvar Extra hairspring you could turn a 992E into every bit the time keeper of the 992B.
Regards, P/L
And that Hamilton dials are a product of the template and not the blueprint.
 
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PapaLouies

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PL,
So what is your Point? Do you think that the balance wheel is a Prototype?

I don't think so. Someone has used a 992B wheel and used a Hairspring with the small middle barrel stud to work on the 992E.

Why would you think Hamilton made a prototype wheel for It? If it was even a remote chance for that, it would be documented by Hamilton.

The 992E was a obsolete watch by 1939,so why in the world would anybody be trying to prototype anything when they had a completely new system with the 992B ?
The Balance Wheel on my 992E 2629929 is original and in fact one of the second generation Balance Wheels for the 992E. You can view many with this Balance Wheel on the Pocket Watch Database that date to 1939 or before. I've tried to fix the date this style began. No luck. My best guess, 1936.
A few comments about the 992B Balance Wheel. The first delivery of the 992B occurred Nov. 1940 and the Patent No. 2356911 for the Balance Wheel was first filed Dec. 19, 1941 and not approved until Aug. 29, 1944.
I have a 992B C63876 ca, 1942 for comparison.
There is little question The Balance Wheels of my 992E and the 993B are quite similar, but at first glance the cross bar of the 992E appears to have a brush finish where the 992B is polished. The rim of the 992B appears thinner than the 992E. To be precise it would require a micrometer and weighting the Balance Wheels.
Jim, I like to think I base my observations on empirical investigation.
No disrespect intended but I think it's quite humorous that you seem so perplexed by my posts.
Regards, P/L
 

SpringDriven

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How does one account for a replaced balance? In my 1961 Hamilton spare parts catalog there is only one balance wheel listed as a replacement for the E and B models. Would your 992E have the serial engraved under the arms?

20210406_104709.jpg

If it was a replacement balance done as part of a service, the balance wheel would look the same as a 992B balance wheel, as in your example?
 
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PapaLouies

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Here is a B and typical E wheel. The B wheel does not look polished in this example?

View attachment 647843 View attachment 647845
Photo left, the wheel on the left is an early 992E wheel. The wheel on the right looks like a 992B wheel with it's white metal hairspring.
Photo right, the wheel on the left looks like an early 992E wheel. The wheel on the right with the wide arm looks like nothing I've seen before.
I do not think Hamilton would take a 992B Balance Wheel and change the balance staff, roller table and blue Elinvar hairspring and likely the balance screws to fit a 992E.
Regards, P/L
 

PapaLouies

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How does one account for a replaced balance? In my 1961 Hamilton spare parts catalog there is only one balance wheel listed as a replacement for the E and B models. Would your 992E have the serial engraved under the arms?

View attachment 647842

If it was a replacement balance done as part of a service, the balance wheel would look the same as a 992B balance wheel, as in your example?
SpringDriven,
No question this may have occurred on some 992E's.
I'm getting up in years and a bit reluctant to remove the balance and and check for the serial number, but will try and do so later.
To date I've found the following 992E's on the P.W.D.B. They all have the same Balance Wheel as my 992E with blue Elinvar hairspring. All were produced by 1939 and have the following serial numbers, 2625500, 2627323, 2629215, 2633525, 2634301 & 2634461.
I think it's rather unlikely that all of these 992E's were returned to Hamilton for a new Balance.
Regards, P/L
 
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Jim Haney

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We will start with your 1st post, in that, you claim that the balance is a prototype.

I have a very early 992E that was made 70,000 numbers before the 1st run of 992E, so would it be a prototype?


The 992E was a transitional watch from the 992 to the 992B, a complete new design, all new parts, etc from the 992 or the 992E.
Over the 8 years that Hamilton was improving the 992E before the 992B was introduced it went through several changes.

I went over the 992E in my collection and have found a fact that explains the balance wheel in your example.

I have these examples of the 992E

as mentioned in the above thread 2510398
2581270
2582658
2590632
2594707
2598302
2615586
2624392
2629513
All of the serial numbers except for the last two have the 992E balance wheel with the hole in the arm.

The last 2 serial numbers have a solid arm, as you have pictured in your watch # 2629929

I removed the balance and the scratched number under the arm is the same as the watch number.

You would have to say based on these actual examples that the 992E evolved or improved in the last several runs to a different type of balance arm from the original with holes in the arm ends.

So your example is just a later end of cycle production, It is certainly not a prototype.............

DSCN5017.JPG DSCN5018.JPG DSCN5023.JPG DSCN5022.JPG
 

PapaLouies

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Prototype:
The original OR MODEL ON WHICH SOMETHING IS BASED OR FORMED.
P/L
 

Jim Haney

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What is the Original or the Model on which the 992E was formed. There is no original Model in the solid balance arm?

You Mislead people by claiming One of a kind watches or Prototypes on watches that are regular production watches.

Don't you get it:???: I am tired of playing games with your misleading posts.

Maybe you are just entertaining yourself for reactions? :cuckoo:

If you want real answers to your questions start assembling a collection that you can reference back to for differences in the model.:rolleyes:
 

PapaLouies

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The 992E Balance Wheel is the Model on which the 992B Balance was formed.
I'm not asking for answers I'm stating observation.
If the 992E Balance was not the Model for the 992B Balance Wheel, why in your post #23 would say the 992E was a 992B wheel.
So if you don't like my posts don't read them.
P/L
 

Jim Haney

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I do not know if the 992E Balance wheel was the Model for the 992B wheel.

I seriously doubt it because, of the serial numbers on the 992E wheels match the movements and the color is very different from a 992B balance wheel.

Who knows for sure if someone could have repaired the 992E with a 992B wheel in your picture, It was your speculation that it was some sort of prototype, instead of the fact that it was a gradual transition of the end of the 992E production so Hamilton changed the wheel from the original

Your post with statement of this is a 992B prototype type is the misleading Key to this discussion . It is not a prototype of any kind, it is the evolution on of the end runs of the 992E, but of course you want people to believe that you have discovered a Rare Prototype of some kind ,which hurts Horology because of your observations( speculations) are not correct.....
 

terry hall

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The 992E Balance Wheel is the Model on which the 992B Balance was formed.
I'm not asking for answers I'm stating observation.
If the 992E Balance was not the Model for the 992B Balance Wheel, why in your post #23 would say the 992E was a 992B wheel.
So if you don't like my posts don't read them.
P/L
No you are stating an opinion.... that seems much different than what the information from that time frame provides.
have you studied the halligan writings... available from NAWCC Library...

Know I am gonna regret this response.... here is your freebie...
Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 239.jpg
Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 239.jpg Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 240.jpg Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 241.jpg Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 242.jpg Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 243.jpg Halligan's Notes and Movements Hamilton 244.jpg
Please note the statements of the 992B is NEW... and parts are not interchangeable... stated multiple times.

also there is no mention in the 992E writings of any balance design change....
But the Elinvar situation in 1932 are most interesting documents.

Good luck to you in your learning....
 

PapaLouies

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Hi Terry,
Thanks for all the information.
But if you wish to say my observation is my opinion that's OK by me.
I still think that the basic 992B Balance Wheel used the second generation 992E Balance Wheel as a Model or as I have said a Prototype.
Regards, P/L
 

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This thread went too far and I am closing it to new posts. It seems that more
than enough evidence has been posted to show what the balance wheel actually
is on the OP's watch. Going back and forth with this has just caused more confusion.

As all of the experts above agree the balance wheel is not a 992B wheel and is not a prototype
or Model. it is just a regular production wheel used towards the end of the 992E runs.


Rob
 
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