English 6 Pillar Regulator Movement and Dial

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by 12lb weight, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good Afternoon All.
    Some help requested please.
    Acquired some years ago, but has sat on a shelf in a box all but forgotten. I decided to make a start with a view to making a case to suit. Probably a curved top long case in Walnut, but I digress. The movement is quite nice with jewelled pallets and maintaining power, but I cannot place the dial. The reverse side has many inscriptions of various services and overhauls, the most prominent being that of P Richards, January 7th New York in 1820, but also Joshua Parks Coventry GB 1866. There are many indistinct others so the clock is well travelled , but lacks any makers identification. The movement is very substantial and the dial is 12 1/2' Diameter.
    Does anyone have any thoughts on this being of American origin ??
    Thak you very much P1080556.JPG P1080557.JPG P1080558.JPG P1080559.JPG P1080560.JPG P1080561.JPG
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    9,866
    623
    113
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It is surprising that it had screwed pillars so early. I don't know much about regulators, apart from them usually being expensive. It has that awful metal cable Americans like but it is very new so not original. Does it have a grooved winding barrel?

    I have seen those pillars before but not screwed.
     
  3. Snapper

    Snapper Registered User

    Nov 30, 2014
    288
    28
    28
    Lincolnshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    All my instincts say this movement is English and the shaped plates hint towards the early nineteenth century but as Novicetimekeeper says, I have never come across screwed pillars so early. Could the pillars have been drilled and tapped at some time, or even replaced altogether as the screws and washers look rather crude in comparison with the motion work.
     
  4. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #4 12lb weight, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    The barrel has shallow grooves. Totally agree about the cable is has to go. Looking closely, which is hard to do on photos, the pillars look original and the spacers/washers have been machined to an accuracy that make me think that these have always been there. If someone was able to machine these to that degree of accuracy they could have machined the pillars.Strange not to have a name on he dial though.
     
  5. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Should have mentioned that the Pendulum has a glass mercury jar ,adjuster AND micro adjuster, with a Invar steel rod. The pendulum hangs on the backboard and luckily I have the fixing. When I bought this around 1980:???: it was a project, now it it an ambition .
     
  6. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just thought that I would try this and interestingly, the piller screw tightens up all the way to secure the piller without the washer being in place and this is the same on all 6., rendering the use of the washers totally unnecessary.
    Bit of a puzzle why they were added, but the marking on the plate suggests may years or from origin. Beginning to wonder if the dial is an earlier dial fitted to a Victorian movement, if so, excellent job and wish I had those skills.
    Any thoughts on this aspect ?
    P1080573.JPG
     
  7. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    6,585
    741
    113
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    this is a completely subjective rather than informed opinion, but when I first saw the post and initial photos I thought that the washers did not look as refined as the pillars and also look like they might have an even thicknesses… although perhaps just the photos.

    I like the look of the washers better than without… I will leave the question of originality to those who know more what they’re looking at.

    by the way… That’s a nice movement to have sitting around waiting for when you can get to it
     
  8. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Bruce, but it was more of a case of my wife moved the box to a deep cupboard under the stairs and I forgot about it than anything else.
    Memory getting bit shot these days, so better get that case made while I still remember how o_O
     
  9. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    2,825
    566
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Any thinking that is T. Richards, not P. Richards? Thomas Richards did offer a regulator. I think I saw one at auction awhile back but have not found it again. And the signature looks more like a T to me. Both his tie to English clockmaking and his tie to Simon Willard suggest he may have been dealing in better grades of clocks, perhaps regulators.

    20190607_110444 (2).jpg
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    9,866
    623
    113
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I would say it definitely is not a P. I could not quite decide what it was though, it has similarities at the top to the J.
     
  11. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have looked in Loomes and there is a Thomas Richards in New York in 1805.
    Thanks Jim, I will see what else I can find out.
    Holmcroft
     
  12. zedric

    zedric Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 8, 2012
    1,136
    152
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Maybe buy a Scottish roundhead longcase and use the case for the movement. Might be cheaper than getting one made, if you can find one that fits?
     
  13. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,836
    126
    63
    Country Flag:
    Regulator cases have unusually thick backboards. 1 , 1-1/2", maybe even thicker.

    Ralph
     
  14. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well it took some time , but the case is virtually finished. Like Ralph suggested a 1" backboard and I have hung the pendulum from it. Took a while to source a suitable mercury jar pendulum and the fretwork needs a little finishing, decided to discard the old dial as this looked much better and was looking for a home P1010307.JPG P1010308.JPG
     
    D.th.munroe, brian fisher and JimmyOz like this.
  15. zedric

    zedric Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 8, 2012
    1,136
    152
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Lovely work on making the case!
     
  16. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    9,866
    623
    113
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    you had another dial where everything lined up?
     
  17. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    No it did not line up , so I filled the tiny original holes with brass studs and sanded and polished these down on the face and reverse of the dial. drilled new ones, turned new dial feet and fitted these with the original screws., then resilvered the dial and applied 2 coats of lacquer. The original screws were very small with minute countersinking which was not to difficult to replicate. The movement is a 6 pillar one with 4 non concentric dial feet.I have cut out the mahogany fretwork below the dial and fitted it, but am in 2 minds about carving it ? The fretwork was cut using a tracing taken from a clock I found in a museum having kindly been given permission when I explained my reasons for wanting it. P1010309.JPG
     
  18. Raymond Rice

    Raymond Rice Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 14, 2011
    284
    26
    28
    Retired IBM manager, retired politician, now just
    NYS
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Very impressive work! Congratulations on completion of your beautiful regulator.
    Ray Rice
     
  19. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,468
    326
    83
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    wow. as mentioned, that is incredibly impressive work! did you do all of the work yourself?

    the last tall case on my collection list is an astro regulator.
     
  20. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,836
    126
    63
    Country Flag:
    The clock looks great. I have a stray case that looks like that. It has had some heavy restoration, but has a great glass, with Greenwich Time gold leafed on it. It had a nice fretwork as well, but I had another better clock, missing the fretwork, so it got reassigned. The case looks like an astro case, but I as am sure it was what I call a gentleman's regulator and probably had a time and strike, deadbeat escapement, maintaining power movement. It failed the thick backboard test, plus had two holes in the waist floor for the weights to descend. I'm looking for a stray movement, lto marry into it. It can be a lower end , non jeweled movement. I have a good movement, but it's too good for the case. LOL.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Ralph
     
  21. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,836
    126
    63
    Country Flag:
    I know of an 18th century pagoda topped musical clock with screwed pillars. I would put it around1780-1790. Thyar Pitt, London.

    I wonder when they started?

    Ralph
     
  22. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    9,866
    623
    113
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've only seen them as repairs to older clocks before, I have no idea when they started.
     
  23. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Jul 3, 2016
    2,606
    191
    63
    Male
    Carson City, Nevada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I wonder what the thread pattern on that might be? Many screws, nuts and bolts of that era were machined with no standard thread pattern considered.
     
  24. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    2,825
    566
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A quick scan of Derek Roberts books on precision clocks shows several people using pillars retained by bolts/screws in 6 posted movements by 1780. Of course, he also shows some using pinned posts as late as 1880, so, while some thought the bolts were necessary, or a substantial improvement perhaps, some others thought not.
     
  25. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,836
    126
    63
    Country Flag:
    Stubbs, Martin, and others provided screw plates and taps to the clockmakers and others. It's a good idea to gather an assortment of screwplates, if you work on early clocks. They could come in handy.

    Ralph
     
  26. 12lb weight

    12lb weight Registered User

    Jun 3, 2019
    45
    31
    18
    Male
    Still alive, takes all my time
    Norfolk UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thank you, Yes all my own work. It has taken me over 70 years to get here since my initial interest in clocks as a child.
    Still learning new things as I go and being prepared to try anything ,(with many mistakes along the way), always helps.
    I would love to make a replica of a late 17th C Marquetry case, but a suitable movement is very hard to obtain.
    Getting the movement would be the 1st step and having enough time to complete it would be the second, maybe a lowering of sights is required ?
    I have always been intrigued by the Scottish Fluted Column Drumhead longcase, and have 2 in my collection, but making my own,now that would be a challenge!
    Keep safe and well
     

Share This Page