400 day clock confusion

jsisler

Registered User
Nov 18, 2000
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I Have a Kieninger & Obergfell anniversary clock, too and I have the pendulum balls at max slow but the time is still fast. Is there a way that I can somehow slow down the pendulum. I've considered bringing the bottom block up on the suspension spring. I am a beginner and apprehensive about anything drastic. Mainspring and suspension spring are both brand new.
Thanks
 

jsisler

Registered User
Nov 18, 2000
34
1
0
I Have a Kieninger & Obergfell anniversary clock, too and I have the pendulum balls at max slow but the time is still fast. Is there a way that I can somehow slow down the pendulum. I've considered bringing the bottom block up on the suspension spring. I am a beginner and apprehensive about anything drastic. Mainspring and suspension spring are both brand new.
Thanks
 
R

Rod

If you move the block up on the spring you will just make the problem worse,I think your spring is not correct,it should be a "thinner" spring.
 

fixoclock

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Aug 29, 2000
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I also believe that your suspension spring is too strong ( thick ) for the KundO clock.
To slow a 400 day clock down a thinner spring is selected so that the pendulum will swing through a slightly greater arc and hence take longer complete a cycle for the release of an escape wheel tooth.
According to the Horolovar 400 day Repair Guide 10th ed. you need suspension unit no.1,2,3A,3B OR 3C depending on the pendulum attachment.
I recommend you refer to this book compare you clock back plate to those shown in the chapter of plates und Kieninger and Obergfeld
then you will be able to identify the correct suspension spring and /or unit.
Complete units are available from the supply houses in the US, such as Timesavers,Merritts,LaRose, etc.
 
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David Holk

I have installed suspension springs which were supposed to be to spec. and the clocks ran fast.

I have sanded them with 400 grit sandpaper, about ten strokes at a time (spring between a
folded sheet) and been able to get them in range. It takes a few tries but it works.

David 141254
 

doug sinclair

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Aug 27, 2000
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jsisler,

Do you have a problem with the escapement "fluttering"? This can be caused by the fork being too low on the suspension spring giving too much "flex" in the suspension spring between the fork and the top chops (block) of the suspension spring. Best way to determine this is to test the clock on a shelf where you can observe it for a period of time. You'll hear it if it flutters!

There has also been a problem with suspension spring assortments from some major parts suppliers (not a problem with the pre-packaged springs by Horolovar) in which the springs are mis-sorted and some are not the strength they should be.

Has anyone tampered with the setting of the pallets to try to correct this gaining problem? That can be a cause as well.

The amplitude of your pendulum should be approximately 260 to 300 degree range. If less, this should indicate an adjustment problem and not a spring strength problem unless the spring is waaaay to strong.

I use a 15 beats per second (900 beats per minute) stop watch to test pendulum rate, but a quartz one would work as well. 400-day clocks usually beat 8 or 10 beats per minute. Which one should yours be? Usually the miniatures beat 10 to the minute and the full-size ones 8 per minute but there are exceptions.

1./ Carefully observe the pendulum and start the stop watch precisely at the end of an oscillation.

2./ At the END of the first oscillation, count ONE.

2./ Observe the pendulum carefully, counting the oscillations until precisely the END of the eighth (or tenth) oscillation and STOP the stopwatch precisely at the end of the swing. The watch will show whether more or less than a minute has elapsed. This method saves a LOT of time in sorting these clocks out. If the spring is too strong and you have adjusted the regulator correctly and the rate of oscillaion is too fast, the spring strength is likely your problem.

Let us know what you find and how you make out.

Regards,

Doug S.

------------------
 
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Joseph Rabushka

Most Kundo clocks use a .0031 spring. The info in the Repair Guide is incorrect. You are probably using a .0032 which is why your clock is running too fast.
 
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jsisler

Registered User
Nov 18, 2000
34
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0
I would like to thank EVERYBODY for their help in figuring out my problem. First I tried to thin down the spring with sandpaper, but it kept kinking on me. Next, I tried a thicker spring (next size down .0032) and that seemed to work. Then setting the beat and regulating took up the most time, as most of you know. Terwiligers book was invaluable!
Again, thank you all!
My next project is a heirloom coocoo clock, So stay tuned...!
 
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John Hubby

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Sep 7, 2000
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Pleased to see you got your clock running to time!

Just for everyone's info, there were two possible problems with jsisler's Kundo:

Problem One: Not all Kundo standard 4-Ball pendulums weigh the same.

Kundo standard size pre-WWII clocks and those made after WWII with wide plate movements (if they still have the original pendulum) will do OK with the 0.0032 inch spring, that pendulum has lead weights and weighs 11.5 ounces. The pendulums first fitted to the narrow plate movements (1952 - 1962 +/-) had lead weights in the balls but only weighed 10.5 ounces. These are the ones that take a 0.0031 inch spring as Joe Rabushka reports. Sometime in the early '60's they replaced the lead weights in the pendulum with steel weights, and that pendulum only weighs 8.5 ounces, and will use a 0.0028 inch spring.

Problem Two: Non-Horolovar spring suspension units generally run too fast even though the spec says they are the same. Problem is that even though the thickness may be the same, the springs are wider and thus torsionally stronger.

Solutions: The correct solutions have all been given . . if the clock runs too fast you can thin the spring, or you can change to a thinner spring.

When thinning, I recommend removing the top block and fork, hold the bottom block and stroke from end to end with 600 grit paper which has been glued to a popsicle stick . . fold in half and sandwich the spring between the halves. 10 strokes gets you about two seconds per minute reduction in rate).

When using Horolovar springs, if you have access to a postal scale, just weigh the pendulums and select from the following (Kundo standard size clocks "only"):
11.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0032 inch
10.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0031 inch
8.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0028 inch

Finally, just as a rule of thumb, remember that each 0.0001 inches of spring thickness will change the rate by about 4 seconds per minute. Example: Pendulum at mid-point, clock takes 52 seconds to make 8 beats, running too fast. At 4 seconds per 0.0001 inches, need a spring that is 0.0002 inches thinner. If you started with a 0.0032, change to a 0.0030 and the clock will be in adjusting range. By the way, this rule applies to ALL 400-Day clocks, mini's, standards, 1000-Days, etc.

Hope this all helps,

John Hubby
Secretary Chapter #168
 

Times

Registered User
Aug 29, 2020
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Pleased to see you got your clock running to time!

Just for everyone's info, there were two possible problems with jsisler's Kundo:

Problem One: Not all Kundo standard 4-Ball pendulums weigh the same.

Kundo standard size pre-WWII clocks and those made after WWII with wide plate movements (if they still have the original pendulum) will do OK with the 0.0032 inch spring, that pendulum has lead weights and weighs 11.5 ounces. The pendulums first fitted to the narrow plate movements (1952 - 1962 +/-) had lead weights in the balls but only weighed 10.5 ounces. These are the ones that take a 0.0031 inch spring as Joe Rabushka reports. Sometime in the early '60's they replaced the lead weights in the pendulum with steel weights, and that pendulum only weighs 8.5 ounces, and will use a 0.0028 inch spring.

Problem Two: Non-Horolovar spring suspension units generally run too fast even though the spec says they are the same. Problem is that even though the thickness may be the same, the springs are wider and thus torsionally stronger.

Solutions: The correct solutions have all been given . . if the clock runs too fast you can thin the spring, or you can change to a thinner spring.

When thinning, I recommend removing the top block and fork, hold the bottom block and stroke from end to end with 600 grit paper which has been glued to a popsicle stick . . fold in half and sandwich the spring between the halves. 10 strokes gets you about two seconds per minute reduction in rate).

When using Horolovar springs, if you have access to a postal scale, just weigh the pendulums and select from the following (Kundo standard size clocks "only"):
11.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0032 inch
10.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0031 inch
8.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0028 inch

Finally, just as a rule of thumb, remember that each 0.0001 inches of spring thickness will change the rate by about 4 seconds per minute. Example: Pendulum at mid-point, clock takes 52 seconds to make 8 beats, running too fast. At 4 seconds per 0.0001 inches, need a spring that is 0.0002 inches thinner. If you started with a 0.0032, change to a 0.0030 and the clock will be in adjusting range. By the way, this rule applies to ALL 400-Day clocks, mini's, standards, 1000-Days, etc.

Hope this all helps,

John Hubby
Secretary Chapter #168
Priceless information, thank you. Perhaps I am missing something here: my Kundo (Western-Germany made) is about 11" tall from the base to the top. The broken spring is either 0.0031 or 0.0032, but the pendulum weight is 8.065 ounce. I have Horolovar 0.0024", 0.0031" and 0.0033" springs available. This is Kundo N.219 clock.
 

Dells

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Priceless information, thank you. Perhaps I am missing something here: my Kundo (Western-Germany made) is about 11" tall from the base to the top. The broken spring is either 0.0031 or 0.0032, but the pendulum weight is 8.065 ounce. I have Horolovar 0.0024", 0.0031" and 0.0033" springs available. This is Kundo N.219 clock.
Close up picture of the backplate will help us determine what size you need.
 

demoman3955

Registered User
Apr 9, 2022
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Pleased to see you got your clock running to time!

Just for everyone's info, there were two possible problems with jsisler's Kundo:

Problem One: Not all Kundo standard 4-Ball pendulums weigh the same.

Kundo standard size pre-WWII clocks and those made after WWII with wide plate movements (if they still have the original pendulum) will do OK with the 0.0032 inch spring, that pendulum has lead weights and weighs 11.5 ounces. The pendulums first fitted to the narrow plate movements (1952 - 1962 +/-) had lead weights in the balls but only weighed 10.5 ounces. These are the ones that take a 0.0031 inch spring as Joe Rabushka reports. Sometime in the early '60's they replaced the lead weights in the pendulum with steel weights, and that pendulum only weighs 8.5 ounces, and will use a 0.0028 inch spring.

Problem Two: Non-Horolovar spring suspension units generally run too fast even though the spec says they are the same. Problem is that even though the thickness may be the same, the springs are wider and thus torsionally stronger.

Solutions: The correct solutions have all been given . . if the clock runs too fast you can thin the spring, or you can change to a thinner spring.

When thinning, I recommend removing the top block and fork, hold the bottom block and stroke from end to end with 600 grit paper which has been glued to a popsicle stick . . fold in half and sandwich the spring between the halves. 10 strokes gets you about two seconds per minute reduction in rate).

When using Horolovar springs, if you have access to a postal scale, just weigh the pendulums and select from the following (Kundo standard size clocks "only"):
11.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0032 inch
10.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0031 inch
8.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0028 inch

Finally, just as a rule of thumb, remember that each 0.0001 inches of spring thickness will change the rate by about 4 seconds per minute. Example: Pendulum at mid-point, clock takes 52 seconds to make 8 beats, running too fast. At 4 seconds per 0.0001 inches, need a spring that is 0.0002 inches thinner. If you started with a 0.0032, change to a 0.0030 and the clock will be in adjusting range. By the way, this rule applies to ALL 400-Day clocks, mini's, standards, 1000-Days, etc.

Hope this all helps,

John Hubby
Secretary Chapter #168
I just weighed the pendulum of one i just picked up, and its 7.8 ounces. So im guessing a 26 may be the place to start? I just ordered the book on 400 day clocks, but its a week out. I will say, i never really had a big interest in these, but when they are as cheap as they are, i cant pass them up.
 

Dells

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Oct 18, 2019
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Bit of a job to tell with the spring guard still in place but from the position of the cuckoo clock mfg co stamp it looks like plate 1039A .0032” torsion spring.
Dell
 
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Times

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Bit of a job to tell with the spring guard still in place but from the position of the cuckoo clock mfg co stamp it looks like plate 1039A .0032” torsion spring.
Dell
Yes, that's right. I forgot where I found this photo, but my suspension spring setup looks and measures identical to this diagram.

But after reading this, things become a bit confusing:

When using Horolovar springs, if you have access to a postal scale, just weigh the pendulums and select from the following (Kundo standard size clocks "only"):
11.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0032 inch
10.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0031 inch
8.5 ounce pendulum, 0.0028 inch

image2 - Copy.jpg
 

KurtinSA

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Nov 24, 2014
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I can't say as I've ever seen a listing showing weight and spring size needed. Nothing in the repair guide that I remember. Whenever I'm in doubt, I find a way to create a suspension spring setup to the correct length with top/bottom blocks and then hang the pendulum. Start it swinging and then could the number of beats in 60 seconds. If the spring is the right size, you'll be close to the required beats. If not, then refit another size spring and repeat. Once I've found a spring that will work, I then final cut and put the suspension unit together.

Kurt
 
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Schatznut

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Sep 26, 2020
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I agree with Kurt - the spring that is correct for the particular clock/pendulum combination is the one that allows it to keep the correct time. It's much easier to buy an assortment of springs than attempt to find another pendulum with a different mass.

Having said that, I have a Konrad Mauch with some unknown pendulum on it, and when it is in regulation, I have to be extremely careful putting the dome on it because the dome can interfere with the pendulum. I need to find a correct Mauch pendulum for it some day.
 

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