22 Carat Gold Barraud

Rudi

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Hi there, I have just acquired this beautiful Barraud (2136) pair cased pocket watch and was wondering if there is anybody that can help with some info on it. Or maybe use the info for their Barraud database. It seem to be an early cylinder escapement with fusee movement and it has a beautiful diamond end stone on the balance. I have always found it difficult to date these so any help will be welcome. I have looked at the Barraud timeline here on this forum but it seems like this one falls right in between a few chronometers that was made. Well enjoy the pics and please comment. We have scanned it with a Olympus Vanta analyzer and it came out to 22.1 carats gold and there is about 52 grams of gold.

a.jpg b.jpg f.jpg g.jpg h.jpg i.jpg e.jpg
 

John Matthews

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Rudi - you have a very beautiful watch. A great find which I believe is of importance.

It is one of the earliest Barraud watches from the first series with the simple numbering. The back plate is very similar in design to #2045 which is illustrated as plate XII in Jagger's first volume. That watch is a verge encased in gold pair cases hallmarked for 1783. Although the hallmarks of your watch are a little indistinct they could be for London 1786/87 (lower case L).

From what I can see I believe it is a ruby cylinder (I think the original is present, rather than a steel replacement). This is the least common of the escapements found in early Barraud watches. Other examples are repeaters but are later from ~1805 and are signed Barraud, Cornhill. Some of these are described as having Swiss steel escape - it would be worth comparing the escape with ...

1656653370872.png

I think it is probably of English design - as on the left. gmorse will be able to confirm whether I am correct.

John
 

Rudi

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Dec 1, 2010
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Rudi - you have a very beautiful watch. A great find which I believe is of importance.

It is one of the earliest Barraud watches from the first series with the simple numbering. The back plate is very similar in design to #2045 which is illustrated as plate XII in Jagger's first volume. That watch is a verge encased in gold pair cases hallmarked for 1783. Although the hallmarks of your watch are a little indistinct they could be for London 1786/87 (lower case L).

From what I can see I believe it is a ruby cylinder (I think the original is present, rather than a steel replacement). This is the least common of the escapements found in early Barraud watches. Other examples are repeaters but are later from ~1805 and are signed Barraud, Cornhill. Some of these are described as having Swiss steel escape - it would be worth comparing the escape with ...

View attachment 715006

I think it is probably of English design - as on the left. gmorse will be able to confirm whether I am correct.

John
Hi John, thank you for the info, it still has the brass escapment as in the picture on the left.
 

SKennedy

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A stunning watch. The mark on the right is the duty mark which according to Priestly was used from 1786 to1798. So, John's suggestion of 'l' for 1786 would make sense.
Are there any hallmarks in the outer case? It might be a trick of the light but is the engine turned area recessed? If so it may have originally been (or intended to be) covered with translucent enamel.
 

Rudi

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A stunning watch. The mark on the right is the duty mark which according to Priestly was used from 1786 to1798. So, John's suggestion of 'l' for 1786 would make sense.
Are there any hallmarks in the outer case? It might be a trick of the light but is the engine turned area recessed? If so it may have originally been (or intended to be) covered with translucent enamel.
Thanks for the info, yes the outer case also have some hallmarks. Best i could do to capture them.

j.jpg
 
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gmorse

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Hi Rudi,

Yes, if your escape wheel is shaped like the one on the left in John's post, it is an English style and correct for the period. They could be brass, gold or steel. The cylinder escapement was perfected by George Graham around 1726, so yours isn't particularly early.

It's quite difficult to see and photograph the cylinder itself in these full-plate watches without removing the balance, but an English ruby cylinder looks like this.

DSCF4552.JPG

Before 1798, when the law was changed to allow 18 carat as well, 22 carat was the only legal standard for gold. Confusingly, the marks for 22 carat gold included the lion passant, (most commonly associated with sterling silver), between 1575 and 1797. The duty mark of the sovereign's head is not often seen in watch cases. It's a very fine case, housing an excellent watch

Regards,

Graham
 

gmorse

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Hi Rudi,

The marks in the outer case are much clearer and show that it was made by Hannah & Peter Cramillion at Clerkenwell Green in the heart of the London watchmaking district, assayed up to a year later than the inner case. The London date letters changed each year in May, so a mark could refer to parts of two years.

Regards,

Graham
 

SKennedy

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I've just been looking up the Cramillions. Hannah and Peter had a daughter Hannah in 1736, the occupation given on the baptism record is Watch Case Maker. Its a possibility be that mark which was registered in 1762 actually refers to daughter and father.

There were only a handful of people capable of engine turning that case in London in the 1780s. The design has strong similarities to other examples I've seen. Its a very complex piece of work.
 

gmorse

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Hi Rudi,

Although the maker's mark in the inner case, (known as the 'box'), is very badly rubbed, there's enough visible to be sure that it's the same as that in the outer case, (known simply as the 'case'), now that we've seen the much clearer mark in the latter. The two cases weren't always by the same maker, and although most mismatches were as a result of damage or wear and now appear with different makers and/or dates, a few were original.

Regards,

Graham
 
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John Matthews

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Its a possibility be that mark which was registered in 1762 actually refers to daughter and father.
Seth - do you have information other than Grimwade?

My reading is that Hannah was the widow of Peter, gold watch case maker, who it is assumed is who registered the incuse mark in April 1736 He had died by 1754. His son Peter was apprenticed to John Vowels and turned over to his mother Hannah and they entered the mark on 8 February, 1762, as Hannah & Son, one year after Peter was free. Presumably he would then be 14 +7 = 21. I assume Peter, the father died young a few years after Peter (jnr) was born, which still make it plausible that the Hannah and Peter in the parliamentary report of 1773 could be mother & son.

John
 
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SKennedy

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John, no, in fact I don't have a copy of Grimade, was just quickly hunting for records using Ancestry in the 10 mins i had earlier. So the info you have is more likely correct as I hadn't really had time to piece anything together. Mother and son would probbaly make more sense for the order their names are in the mark.
 

Tom McIntyre

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It certainly is a beautiful and interesting watch. There is a fairly large group of Barraud examples on my web site and these pictures are of the example closest in number. Unfortunately mine appears tp be in a yellow metal case so there are no hallmarks. Perhaps someone can tell me if the mark show carries any information on the case maker.

The only early example of a non chronometer has the Wine Office Court address and I think the Barraud name refers to Frances Gabriel. I am reasonably sure the piece was made by Earnshaw in some sort of trade exchange. It's case is by Valentine Walker with a 1793 HM.

I am curious what people think is the story about any pieces before 1795 when F. G. died and Paul Philip decided he needed to belong to the Clockmakers Company. I have only seen references to a few watches before then. Jagger lists only 2045 with a HM of 1783. I do not understand the watch listed with 1756 date but he does remark on the absence of the name London.

Anything before Paul Philip paid his penalty to the Clockmakers would seem to be an anomaly. The business appears to have been clock sales of Thwaites & Reid production clocks with perhaps others. Maybe a few watches were sold to make some money since P.P. had been near bankruptcy not that much earlier in mid 1780s. The retailer name Barraud on the clocks was probably common practice, but in and near London Town it would have resulted in action from the Clockmakers Company on a watch.

Another view is that the Clockmakers Company was in a state of decay and they needed Barraud and Isaac Rogers to put them back on a business footing. Someone may have noticed his corporate skills before he was admitted. Barraud and his court were elected for two successive terms. That seems to be a theory that Jagger supported.

1656709665922.png 1656709735273.png 1656709834799.png 1656710139025.png
 

John Matthews

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Unfortunately mine appears tp be in a yellow metal case so there are no hallmarks. Perhaps someone can tell me if the mark show carries any information on the case maker.
Tom - the incuse mark TG is probably that of Thomas Gooch on the basis of the marks registered in Gimwade and thereafter Priestley. The registration of 4 January,1794 fits both the interpolated Barraud date for your watch and the interpretation of similar marks of other contemporary watches, including a gilt-metal pair case housing Dupont centre-second verge #2521.

John
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Hi, Tom, I knew I had seen some remarks on that 1756 watch, so I looked through the miles of paper I have on Barraud and came across a piece by David Penney. He was selling a movement by P.P.Barraud in 2018, serial number 1113. He dates the watch movement at c1785. Saying it could not have been made by P.P. in 1756, P.P.Barraud was born in 1752. He also said the watch could be by his father Francis-Gabriel Barraud. The movement is signed Barraud, London.

Allan.
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Tom, here is another look at my coin silver Barraud, I never get enough of looking at it. Please note the case has the same serial number as the watch. I don´t know who did this, but he was trying to fool someone. If you remember it came from Turkey. Looking at Jagger´s book the watch could have been a duplex c1815, it is now converted to a single table roller, though it must have been quite early, the banking pins are both on the right side of the escape wheel, the first one very near the safety pin. Thanks again to Seth who serviced it last year.


IMG_1390.JPG IMG_1391.JPG IMG_1392.JPG IMG_1393.JPG
 
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Tom McIntyre

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Please note the case has the same serial number as the watch. I don´t know who did this, but he was trying to fool someone.
It is possible that it was deceit, but I suspect he just thought it was supposed to match, so he did it. He could have replaced the pipe also but with the back cover joint that would not look right in any case and would have been a lot more effort.
 

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