2-train quarter-striking

[Simon Holt]

I thought I'd share this with forum members because a quick search of the forum did not turn up any similar movements.

This clock came to me from a visitor to the Repair Café where I volunteer:


It's 17 inches high and is fitted with a high-quality 2-train movement by Winterhalder & Hofmeier. Brief research suggests it dates between 1850-1869, based on the maker's mark (W&H Sch.) There are two hammers striking two gong coils.

For me, the interesting thing is that it signals the quarters with a 'bim-bam' sequence ('bim-bam' at quarter past, 'bim-bam bim-bam' at half-past and so on) BUT the hour strike uses only one hammer. This is achieved by an extra lever on the front plate which is lifted by a pin on the hour wheel so that the outermost hammer is lifted just before the top of the hour:

(pre-cleaning)

And the reason I thought it was worth sharing is because of the two important aspects of getting this set-up to work:

1. The mesh point between the hour wheel and the canon pinion (I hope I got those terms right) must be just right, otherwise the lever will not be lifted as the top of the hour approaches
2. The pin on this lifting lever must be to the left of the corresponding pin on the outer hammer arbor (when looking from the front of the movement) otherwise the strike train will stall because it is trying to lift this lever as well as the hammer.

Needless to say, I'd rather you didn't ask me how I know...

Simon

 

[Mike Phelan]

And the reason I thought it was worth sharing is because of the two important aspects of getting this set-up to work:

1. The mesh point between the hour wheel and the canon pinion (I hope I got those terms right) must be just right, otherwise the lever will not be lifted as the top of the hour approaches

Don't you mean the minute wheel, Simon?

 

[Simon Holt]

Don't you mean the minute wheel, Simon?

After all this time, I can still mix up the terminology... Thanks for the gentle correction Mike!

Simon

 

[John P]

Simon, your clock is often called a blind mans clock .

my 2 cents
johnp

 

[Simon Holt]

Simon, your clock is often called a blind mans clock .

my 2 cents
johnp

How curious. It doesn't seem to me to be any more helpful for a blind person than a conventional 3-train chimer.

Simon

 

[wow]

I don’t think your clock is a “blind man’s clock”. A blind man’s clock has two gongs side by side. One is a higher pitch than the other. It counts the hour at each 1/4 point as well as striking the the 1/4 hour (high pitch).
An example would be:
At three o’clock it strikes four times on the higher pitched gong denoting the forth quarter of the hour followed by three strikes on the lower pitched gong denoting the hour count (three o’clock).
At three fifteen it strikes once on the higher pitched gong followed by three strikes on the lower pitched gong denoting 1/4 after the hour and the hour is three.
At three thirty it strikes twice on the high gong followed by three strikes on the lower gong denoting the 1/2 hour and three as the hour.
At three forty five it strikes three times on the high gong followed by three strikes on the lower gong denoting the 3/4 hour and the hour is three.
At four o’clock it strikes four times on the high gong followed by four on the lower gong denoting four o’clock.
This is also called a grande sonnerie strike.
One can know the exact time every fifteen minutes without looking at the clock.

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

I love that case! Especially since it was a wedding present. I could not read the entire plate, but needless to say a nice case. Good luck on your project!

 

[Simon Holt]

One can know the exact time every fifteen minutes without looking at the clock.

What a neat idea! I've never come across one of those. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Simon

 

[Simon Holt]

I love that case! Especially since it was a wedding present. I could not read the entire plate, but needless to say a nice case. Good luck on your project!

Here's a better picture:

The current owner bought it at auction and so has no connection with the name on the plaque.
Now that I've had a closer look myself, that helps date the clock (assuming it wasn't second-hand when presented...)

I enjoy researching plaques that I come across. This is my favourite so far:

There's quite a story behind that name... and it was a relative that brought it into the Repair Café.

Simon

 

[J. A. Olson]

1896 is closer to when it was manufactured. Hate to break it, but if it's a W&H and real beefy it ain't as old as some would claim.
On the other hand, it's a nice clock. The carved case has a nice rustic look to it.

Winterhalder & Hofmeier got into these big high-end clocks during the 1890's as an effort to compete against costlier English clocks and movements thereof. American and English clients alike adored Winterhalder for delivering quality clocks and movements at lower costs compared to what the English manufacturers offered. Despite their popularity with clients and collectors alike, a lot of technical information for Winterhalder clocks has been lost to time.

There were multiple clock factories associated with the Winterhalder family, making clear identification a real conundrum sometimes.

The W&H Sch. legion was still being used up through the 1920's. Here we see the W&H Sch. mark on a comparatively later hall clock's dial - Winterhalder movement and dial, housed in a Hanson case.



Prior to all that, W&H's products primarily comprised of simple cottage clocks such as this specimen. These are the real old ones:

Sold at auction Winterhalder & Hofmeier Mahogany Cottage Clock with Alarm Auction Number 2890M Lot Number 66 | Skinner Auctioneers

Sold at auction Winterhalder & Hofmeier Mahogany Cottage Clock with Alarm for sale in auction. Auction Number 2890M, Lot Number 66. Bid on similar items for sale at auction

www.skinnerinc.com

 

[Simon Holt]

Having rebuilt this clock, I have a problem with the strike train stalling 3 or 4 days after a full wind.

The back-story is that one of the two hammer arbors was missing the lifting pin that engages with the strike pin wheel (not sure about that terminology - instead of a star strike wheel this one has multiple pins). I made and fitted a replacement pin that matched the one in the other arbor - same length, and at 90 degrees to the arbor.

The repaired arbor is the one that is lifted first in the bim-bam sequence. I have synchronised the train so that the train stops immediately after the second hammer drops. Despite that, my new lift pin on the first hammer is then in contact with a pin on the strike pin wheel, so there is no 'run-up' when the train is released from warning. That doesn't seem normal, does it? The only bim-bam I've worked on had a strike start wheel with two stars, one for each hammer. This one has a single set of pins that lift both hammers.

All I can think is that the pin I fitted should have been either shaped or angled differently from the one on the other hammer arbor, so that it is not in contact with a pin on the strike pin wheel after striking.

To test that assumption I might have to experiment several times (split the plates, remove pin, make new pin, fit new pin, reassemble, test). That could be tedious in the extreme, so does anyone have any pictures that would show the correct arrangement? Or might the strike train simply be under-powered in the first place?

Simon

 

[J. A. Olson]

How high do the hammers lift? The hammers shouldn't lift too high, otherwise that may cause the strike train to stall.

 

[wow]

Simon, photos of those lifting pins and that whole area of the movement might help. Maybe a short video of what is happening when it stalls would help.

 

[Simon Holt]

How high do the hammers lift? The hammers shouldn't lift too high, otherwise that may cause the strike train to stall.

Good question. If I say that the hammer sequence is 1-2, with #1 being the first to lift, and also being the one I repaired:

• Hammer #1starts to lift first, then hammer #2 starts to lift
• Hammer #1 then drops, followed by hammer #2. The stalling occurs during the lifting of hammer #2 - the train is trying to lift both hammers at this point - i.e. maximum load.
• Hammer #2 (the one I didn't repair, remember...) has a much higher lift than hammer #1, but as I didn't repair that one then I'm assuming that the lift is correct.
• Hammer #1 is very quiet compared with Hammer #2, which tends to support my idea that my replaced pin is not the right shape/angle/length and is not lifting enough. The arbor for hammer #1 is slightly further away from the strike pin wheel than the arbor for hammer #2, so that may be another reason why copying the pin on arbor #2 was not the right thing to do.

Simon, photos of those lifting pins and that whole area of the movement might help. Maybe a short video of what is happening when it stalls would help.

I'll do that Will - but it's very cramped in there! Can't get round to that until Sunday.

Simon

 

[shutterbug]

Since it's weight driven, it's not likely a power issue. Something else going on that needs to be discovered I think.

 

[Simon Holt]

Since it's weight driven, it's not likely a power issue. Something else going on that needs to be discovered I think.

The clock in post #10 is weight-driven, but isn't the subject of this thread. The clock I am working on is spring-driven...

Simon

 

[Simon Holt]

A really close inspection today showed that I was wrong about the hammer pin resting on a pin on the strike wheel when the train is at rest. You can see in the second video that there is a gap. The videos also show how quickly the train stops after striking and how short the warning run is. I believe that I can't possibly give the train any longer to run up before the first hammer starts to lift.

This video shows the strike train stalling. If I manually lift the hammers and let the train run up to speed, it will continue until the sequence is complete:


Here is a close-up of the lower hammer (the first to be lifted) as the train goes into warning, then runs and finally stops:


And here's the upper hammer:


Apologies for the messy grease you can see - once I've got this clock running as it should, I'll strip and clean it again.

This clock wasn't working when it came to me, so I've no way of knowing if it ever capable of striking for 7+ days. The owner has no history so I've no way of knowing if the spring is correct. I don't think the springs have need swapped or shortened - they both take the same number of turns (15) from fully unwound. There's no significant difference in the torque required.

So I'm stumped. Help!

Simon

 

[wow]

Simon, I noticed that the hands are lifting very high. It is not necessary for them to lift that high maybe the lifting levers (pins) on the two arbors are a bit too long? I also think the springs are pretty tight causing the hammers to hit the rods too hard. That extra pressure on the arbors can stop the train. Unhook the return springs and see if it will operate without stopping. If so, bend the springs so they put less pressure on the hammer arbors. Also be sure both lifting pins are smooth on the lower side so they don’t catch on the wheel pins. If none of this helps, you have a tight bushing or some other bind in the train

 

[Simon Holt]

Simon, I noticed that the hands are lifting very high. It is not necessary for them to lift that high maybe the lifting levers (pins) on the two arbors are a bit too long? I also think the springs are pretty tight causing the hammers to hit the rods too hard. That extra pressure on the arbors can stop the train. Unhook the return springs and see if it will operate without stopping. If so, bend the springs so they put less pressure on the hammer arbors. Also be sure both lifting pins are smooth on the lower side so they don’t catch on the wheel pins. If none of this helps, you have a tight bushing or some other bind in the train

One of the hammers does lift much more than the other - but that is the one I didn't repair! The return spring tension may be an issue though - I'll do as you suggest and report back. It may be a while though as Easter will mean time spent with family takes priority over time spent with clocks...

Simon

 

[Simon Holt]

Simon, I noticed that the hands are lifting very high. It is not necessary for them to lift that high maybe the lifting levers (pins) on the two arbors are a bit too long? I also think the springs are pretty tight causing the hammers to hit the rods too hard. That extra pressure on the arbors can stop the train. Unhook the return springs and see if it will operate without stopping. If so, bend the springs so they put less pressure on the hammer arbors. Also be sure both lifting pins are smooth on the lower side so they don’t catch on the wheel pins. If none of this helps, you have a tight bushing or some other bind in the train

Problem solved, thanks Will!

Backing off the pressure on the returns springs did the trick. I did also shorten one of the lifting pins to reduce the amount of hammer lift - that made the volume of the bim-bam strikes much more equal.

Simon

 

[novicetimekeeper]

What a neat idea! I've never come across one of those. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Simon

This is what a pull repeat does so that you can tell the time in the dark, it just doesn't do it unless you pull the cord.

 

[wow]

This is what a pull repeat does so that you can tell the time in the dark, it just doesn't do it unless you pull the cord.

I never thought of that. I wondered why they did that. I assumed it was so you could show off your clock’s nice sound. Thanks!