1st French Movement Disassembly

Snorty

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Just started my 1st French movement and yet again, it has become a baptism of fire!!!
with the exception of one, every single taper pin was seized solid….and I mean solid. I tried soaking in release oil, applying heat, tapping them out with a punch. Nothing worked. I got some alum but couldn’t use it for various reasons. Eventually…and it pained me to do it, I had to cut / grind them off with a dremel. Sadly the brass plate has suffered accordingly:banghead: some of them snapped right off but still required grinding down image.jpg

8F63275E-90C8-4CA8-BBAC-DAAC322CCBB8.jpeg I

D32F2F6B-85DA-41BC-BA8C-1C4B76B4EA18.jpeg

I now have the joyous task of trying to clear the post holes….this maybe the task for the alum.

Something I wanted to ask, this wheel appears captive in the plate with no obvious method for removal…can anyone shed any light?
image.jpg
 

Simon Holt

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Ouch! I feel your pain :oops:.

Obviously, it will never again look perfect but the situation is quite recoverable. My approach to the taper pins would be to drill them out. With care and the correct sized drill you will end up with a hole in the pillar that is close to the original diameter. If it ends up lightly larger, the new taper pin will simply push in a bit further that it might otherwise. But it will still secure the plates in a satisfactory fashion.

Regarding the 'captive' wheel: I think that gathering pallet will simply pull off. Try a little heat if it is reluctant - someone previous repairer might have used Loctite or superglue.

Simon

EDIT: And be very careful not to snap off any pivots. They are glass-hard.
 

Snorty

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Thanks Simon, advice much appreciated as always.
I’ll give drilling them out a go, see how I get on. It’s times like this I wish I had the pillar drill that’s waiting for me in my late fathers workshop!
I’ve not tried to extract that wheel yet as decided to leave it alone after I even separated the plates. I’ll stick a little heat on it and see where that leads. The strike hammer was the same…really did not want to let go. The release oil did help there though.
I am a little gutted at the scratching on the plate from all the removal attempts. I’ll just have to sand it back a bit and see if I can make some of it disappear. The dremel has taken a groove in the posts too. Hey ho, one of these things. I had considered breaking open my bucket of paraffin but wasn’t sure if it would even have helped here given the release oil did nothing.
Anyway…onwards and upwards! :)
 

Simon Holt

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Don't beat yourself up. It's all part of the learning process. Remember: the man who never made a mistake never made anything!

The last time I had to drill out a taper pin from a post, I did it using a hand-held flexible shaft attached to a Dremel. There wouldn't have been any easy way of holding the movement at the correct angle under the pillar drill.

Incidentally, of of my best purchases was a set of HSS drill bits in 0.1 mm increments from 1 to 6 mm. Using a too small drill would not get the taper pin out. Using one too large results in a big hole in the post...

Another thought: the pin is only jammed at its fat end. You may not need to drill all the way down the pin before being able to drift it out from the thin end.

Simon
 
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Willie X

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You need warm temps and plenty of time for pentatrating oils to work. Like oil and maintain at 100 to 150 degrees for 2 or 3 days. Add oil if/when it evaporates.

I've never seen a pin that couldn't be removed. Often it takes a punch about 5 or 6 inches long, to get the right angle. Use small but very sharp taps with a 2 ounce steel hammer. The steel punch need to have a flat face and always 'back' your work.

The key thing with French clocks is to replace and remove the plate straight up and straight down. No extra pressure, just the weight of the plates.

Test, without the arbors, to make sure there is no binding.

Willie X
 
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gmorse

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Hi Snorty,

I think in situations like this, a Dremel is just too violent, it's difficult to control and keep steady. If a pin won't drift out from the narrow end, use a stout pair of side cutters to take off both ends as close as possible to the pillar, then, with the plate protected with some masking tape, hand file the remaining outer stub, preferably with a pillar file or similar with safe edges ground smooth. Once you have a flat surface, you can mark the centre and drill out the rest of the pin, or alternatively use a hot, saturated alum solution, which won't have so much steel to eat away now.

Yet another way is to leave a slightly longer stub on the inner end and use a clamp with one slotted jaw to clear the outer end of the pin, to press it out.

Regards,

Graham
 

daveR

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Hi Snorty
As Simon has said, you need to get that gathering pallet off, the pivot will surely need cleaning by the look of the rest of it ! If you have one, in addition to methds already suggested, you could try a a small puller as it looks like you have enough above to give it a try. And yes dont bend them!!
Ps if you do get it off, dont lose it, it is a pain to have to make a new one
 

wow

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There is a penetrating oil called “Aerokroil” that works great on these. Like Willie said, It needs time to work. Spray a drop on and let it soak overnight. Then use a small long punch. Light taps and they come out every time. Plumbing supply houses and some automobile parts stores sell it.
 

Snorty

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Thanks everyone….with hindsight, I was probably a tad too ‘gung-ho’ with it! I should know to gather the advice BEFORE setting about it :confused:
Oh well….I have the info there for next time so much appreciated. I have about 5 similar movements sitting here so plenty of practice available!!
I just hope the others aren’t quite as bad at the kickoff.
My mini side cutters weren’t really good enough to get in close unfortunately. I should probably just have been more patient with the release oil.
I’ll get the gathering pallet soaked for a few days and hopefully it will let go fairly easily….fingers crossed!! im afraid this is a very different animal to the longcase movement I have become so familiar with. The uphill learning struggle begins again!
 

gmorse

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Hi Snorty,
My mini side cutters weren’t really good enough to get in close unfortunately.
A lot of the small ones don't have much of a cutting capacity on steel, even the mild steel in these taper pins, and you risk ruining the cutting edges if you try. You don't need to get very close if you're filing back the end before drilling, (post #6).

By the way, that Kroil penetrating spray appears to be around £28 a can in the UK . . .

Regards,

Graham
 

Snorty

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Hi Snorty,


A lot of the small ones don't have much of a cutting capacity on steel, even the mild steel in these taper pins, and you risk ruining the cutting edges if you try. You don't need to get very close if you're filing back the end before drilling, (post #6).

By the way, that Kroil penetrating spray appears to be around £28 a can in the UK . . .

Regards,

Graham
I think I will pick up a couple of new sets of plyers Graham. I just don’t feel these are really up to much. Even my brass jawed set are showing wear at the edges.

I will definitely add the Kroil to the shipping list as I’ve a feeling this won’t be the last time I’m pondering this issue!
Cheers….Graeme
 

Snorty

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Afternoon guys! I haven’t been near this for a while but decided to carry on disassembling the front plate this afternoon.
quick question, what are your thoughts on that shorter spring…. Snapped at some point perhaps?
I’m just wondering if it needs replaced or is still long enough to do the job :emoji_thinking:
85F51463-C56F-44FE-8CB8-2AFEA593BD79.jpeg
 

Snorty

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I’m also just noticing this pin seems a little bent! Looks like it sits behind the hammer spring but I’m not sure on its purpose and whether it should be bent or not! The obvious concern I have is it snapping were I to attempt to straighten it!!
52AB0BB2-84E0-4007-9BE3-FBE9E7CE8D35.jpeg
 
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shutterbug

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I'm guessing that it is not related to the hammer. Probably some other lever.
 

Snorty

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I was having a look at another movement here to see if I could determine its purpose, but I haven’t been able to figure it out as of yet!
 

Simon Holt

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Afternoon guys! I haven’t been near this for a while but decided to carry on disassembling the front plate this afternoon.
quick question, what are your thoughts on that shorter spring…. Snapped at some point perhaps?
I’m just wondering if it needs replaced or is still long enough to do the job :emoji_thinking:
View attachment 710824
The shorter spring acts on the arbor that carries the hammer. I hope you can see in this picture that it is meant to be slightly shorter than the one that acts on the stop lever:
1653717908908.png

You can also just see the pin you mentioned in your other post. It is the hammer stop pin.

Simon
 
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Snorty

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Fantastic…Thanks Simon! It is good to know I won’t need to replace it. I think it may have been incorrectly positioned initially.
That’s the movement fully stripped down now. Sadly I still haven’t acquired a mainspring winder so I’m a little stuck with those until I find one at an acceptable price. I can at least get on with cleaning the rest though :)
 

Simon Holt

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Have you thought about making a Joe Collins winder? They work well. (Incidentally, I have a spare set of let-down sleeves I could let you have at a reasonable price.)

Simon
 

Willie X

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On French clocks, some say that 75% of the problems lie within the main spring barrels. After working on a lot of em, I would agree with this number. Willie X
 

Snorty

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Have you thought about making a Joe Collins winder? They work well. (Incidentally, I have a spare set of let-down sleeves I could let you have at a reasonable price.)

Simon
Hmmm…..I have seen someone build something similar on YouTube Simon. Might be an option.
I’d definitely be interested in the sleeves if you want to pop me a message at some point :)
 

Snorty

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On French clocks, some say that 75% of the problems lie within the main spring barrels. After working on a lot of em, I would agree with this number. Willie X
From the selection of clocks & movements I have here Willie, I’d tend to agree. I just need to become more familiar with them.
 

svenedin

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Seized taper pins are a nuisance. A useful tool is a set of pliers with a slot cut out for the fat end of the pin. It works better with the thin end cut quite short. If you try savage wiggling of the pin (I have done this) it just distorts the pin and makes it even less likely to come out. Similar with split pins on motor cars. Everyone has a favourite release oil. My personal favourite is PlusGas. It’s basically diesel and works on my classic cars!
 
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Snorty

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Seized taper pins are a nuisance. A useful tool is a set of pliers with a slot cut out for the fat end of the pin. It works better with the thin end cut quite short. If you try savage wiggling of the pin (I have done this) it just distorts the pin and makes it even less likely to come out. Similar with split pins on motor cars. Everyone has a favourite release oil. My personal favourite is PlusGas. It’s basically diesel and works on my classic cars!
Ah good old PlusGas! Now there’s a name I’ve not heard for many’s a year….it was the very first release oil I used about ten years ago to swap a turbo out on my first Subaru WRX! I might have to seek out some.
Re the slotted pliers, I think you are spot on there…. Definitely something I need to acquire.. or make. Can they be bought like that do you know or am I better to try and fabricate something?
 

svenedin

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I think you'd have to make the pliers yourself but you have a dremel so it shouldn't be too difficult to cut a slot in one jaw of the pliers. In fact, you could just cut a step out of one side of one jaw to allow the thick end of the taper pin to pass.
 
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RJSoftware

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Yep, needle nose pliers, cut the thin end shorter if too long. One jaw on thin tip, the other above or below fat end. Squeeze. Bigger pliers have more leverage. I have never experienced a fail yet. I don't suspect electrolysis of different metals caused fusing, but possibly.

In regards to Willies comment, yes test plates that they drop on post before setting gears in place. The pins cause post to have a bur, which cause plate to hang. This is critical because gear pivots are brittle like glass. When you get pivot s in right spot, the plate needs to gently lower on its own. Else forcing plate down will snap pivots.

To remove bur you use a fatter drill bit set into post pin hole, drill a small campher/bevel. Then test to see if top plate drops down by gravity only. No squeeze required.

French clocks also have small pinned and screwed bushing blocks. They give you the advantage of not having to do all gears at once. You set those gears inplace. drop top plate on, then screw on those bushings. I call them relief bushings because they simplify the job. Each one has unique pin pattern.
 
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Snorty

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Thanks guys….I will get on the case with creating the slotted pliers. Never again do I wish to go through the nightmare I had with those blasted pins!!
I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the bushing blocks RJ….I’ll need to investigate that.
 

RJSoftware

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1654644637509.png
Here is a copy of image from this site. There are 2 of then. One at center (minute hand) and one near hammer arbor. The little bushing blocks are held in place by a screw and pins underneath.

When assembling you can have these bushing blocks off and simply set gear in place while dropping top plate on. Then after top plate is pinned you carefully install back the small bushing blocks one at a time.

It makes dropping top plate easier, less pivots to line up at once. That's why I call them relief bushings.
 

Snorty

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Fantastic…. Thanks guys. Very useful to know!
 

RJSoftware

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I can see the logic of establishing correct position on hammer lifting gear, but how does that apply to center wheel?
 

Snorty

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Guys, first spring removed from the barrel but I am wondering….is this knackered? Looks like it probably is.
Also, the winding arbor seems to be missing its hook or it has broken somehow during removal. Am I best just using one from another movement to save hassle? It seemed to snap during the let down process but I have absolutely no idea how!

E1511EED-E104-4F55-B98A-75A5781D4B9E.jpeg

DF24FDE9-E021-4F10-9A16-A8755F25F987.jpeg
 

Willie X

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It's easy to replace the bad hook. Just file the arbor to round and (at the divot) bore a 1/16" hole straight through the arbor. Tap in a steel tapered pin and cut/file the little end off flush. Then clean up the big end with a flat file, leaving it about 3/32" proud. While holding the arbor on an anvil, slightly mushroom the protruding end with a small (4 ounce) ball peen hammer. Clean up with files, as necessary to make a good hook. When this is well done it is a barely noticeable repair and a big improvement over the cheap 'upset' hook.

Willie X
 

Snorty

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Thanks Willie, I will have a go at it. I may need to pick up some suitable pins for this type of job as I don’t think I have much.
Yes, I was wondering about the inner coil on the spring Simon. It did look a bit iffy. Shall see what I can do with it.

**edit- actually I do have steel taper pins but just the type for holding plates…. Not sure if those would do the job
 
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shutterbug

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It needs to be steel. Strong enough to hold the power of the spring.
 
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RJSoftware

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One thing I'd like to sort out, commit to memory, is the different grades of steel commonly used in this industry and including firearms.

I think this relevant to this thread as it will be important to choose steel with best properties. There are number references that refer to mixture ratios, maybe carbon percentages and other alloys in the mix.

This is such a weak spot for me as I can't even answer why stainless is not magnetic and iron is. Isn't iron a base of all steal?

Anyway, a list with properties and notation of usefulness is a good thing for us to have. Maybe a sticky thread in the "how to".
 
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Mike Phelan

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Iron is an element, steel is made from iron using various other elements.

Iron is magnetic but cannot be magnetised whereas steel can be magnetised.
 

Snorty

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It needs to be steel. Strong enough to hold the power of the spring.
Yip, cheers. Looks like two options then….either a screw, or cut a new hook in the steel and left it. The likelihood is the screw would be stronger though.

o
It needs to be steel. Strong enough to hold the power of the spring.

One thing I'd like to sort out, commit to memory, is the different grades of steel commonly used in this industry and including firearms.

I think this relevant to this thread as it will be important to choose steel with best properties. There are number references that refer to mixture ratios, maybe carbon percentages and other alloys in the mix.

This is such a weak spot for me as I can't even answer why stainless is not magnetic and iron is. Isn't iron a base of all steal?

Anyway, a list with properties and notation of usefulness is a good thing for us to have. Maybe a sticky thread in the "how to".
Waaay beyond my metal knowledge I’m afraid! Would certainly be interesting to hear though.
 

Snorty

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How should I be treating these springs guys? Clean & re-oil? If so…..what’s the procedure for doing that?
 

gmorse

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Hi RJ,

Some stainless steels are non-magnetic, some aren't, it depends on the proportions of the various alloying elements.

It's an over-simplification to say that steel is iron with a little carbon in it, but the presence of the carbon has a big influence on the behaviour of the resulting alloy, especially on the effect of heat treatment on it. The amount of carbon in the alloy can vary from around 0.05% up to 2.5%, but look at the definitions in this link for more detail.

The steels we encounter in horological contexts often need to have specific properties, such as resistance to wear, elasticity, malleability, etc, and the achievement of the appropriate combination is almost always a compromise. Very hard steel will withstand wear well but is brittle, a spring needs elasticity but can't be too hard, a part to be riveted needs to be malleable and again can't be too soft to retain its shape, too hard to form a rivet or be too springy. One thing to note is that low carbon steel such as 'mild' steel can't be hardened by heat treatment alone, although it will show the tempering colours in the same way as higher carbon steels.

Regards,

Graham
 

Simon Holt

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How should I be treating these springs guys? Clean & re-oil? If so…..what’s the procedure for doing that?
My technique, as an amateur, is to first soak them in paraffin to get any dried oil loose. I then clamp a screwdriver in a vice, hook the spring over the screwdriver, and pull it out as far as I can (the inner coil will prevent you pulling it of the screwdriver and having it slap you in the face):
PXL_20220629_103747627.jpg

Then I scrub the spring thoroughly with 00 wire wool until I can feel that it is smooth, and I can see that any gummy oil has gone. Some professionals recommend using wet-and-dry to ensure perfect smoothness. Check for any imperfections, particularly looking to see if the holes at each end are beginning to tear. Rinse in paraffin to remove wire wool particles, then dry. Finally, for me, a light smear of Mobius 8300 grease is what I use - Moebius 8300 All Purpose Favourite - oil may run out of the barrel and make a mess...

Simon
 

Mike Phelan

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That's about the same as I do, Simon, except I don't use paraffin as it doesn't evaporate enough; I use white spirit or IPA or even petrol it I'm doing it outside.
 

svenedin

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What I’d add to the above is once clean and degreased the spring is very vulnerable to rust so apply a film of suitable grease immediately. I do as Mike does. IPA or petrol outside.
 

RJSoftware

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Thank you Graham. Very good link, but I think I'd like to find a good book on the subject. One that could walk me through the history and evolution without bogging too far down into chemistry and physics.

The Wiki link was interesting, didnt know there where different levels of annealing (spheres thing). Didn't know case hardening was surface only. Guess the implication of the name escaped me :) .

I know the old trick of grinding a piece to determine if higher carbon, as high carbon produces sparks. The OP of this thread could use that trick, but I couldn't even tell him if high carbon would be more desirable as a pin to catch spring coil. Brittle vs mallable...? If indeed high carbon the OP could use a concrete cut nail. Those angular nails made to attach wood to concrete wall. A thing of the past (like me I think) which they now use Tap-cons etc. I suppose they are high carbon alloy etc.

Serious about the book though. Something goes way back before the Romans and every little fascination step. This steel/alloy would plunge through that guys sheild, ahhhhhhk...! Or this sword snapped because the alloy failed, so they chopped his head off, ahhhhhhhhhk.....!

Or not. But I bet the history is interesting.
 

Snorty

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My technique, as an amateur, is to first soak them in paraffin to get any dried oil loose. I then clamp a screwdriver in a vice, hook the spring over the screwdriver, and pull it out as far as I can (the inner coil will prevent you pulling it of the screwdriver and having it slap you in the face):
View attachment 714794

Then I scrub the spring thoroughly with 00 wire wool until I can feel that it is smooth, and I can see that any gummy oil has gone. Some professionals recommend using wet-and-dry to ensure perfect smoothness. Check for any imperfections, particularly looking to see if the holes at each end are beginning to tear. Rinse in paraffin to remove wire wool particles, then dry. Finally, for me, a light smear of Mobius 8300 grease is what I use - Moebius 8300 All Purpose Favourite - oil may run out of the barrel and make a mess...

Simon
That's about the same as I do, Simon, except I don't use paraffin as it doesn't evaporate enough; I use white spirit or IPA or even petrol it I'm doing it outside.
What I’d add to the above is once clean and degreased the spring is very vulnerable to rust so apply a film of suitable grease immediately. I do as Mike does. IPA or petrol outside.
Thanks Simon, I will give the screwdriver technique a try over the weekend! I have wool and wet & dry here so will just see how it goes. I don’t think I have anything similar to that grease (probably only car related greases) so I may need to get some. The explanation is appreciated though!
Thanks for the further comments guys, I do have paraffin left from last years attempts to split the cannon pinion off my long case (Mike I do recall you despising the stuff!:chuckling:) but also have a bottle IPA stored In the garage somewhere so may just opt for that. Just need to get some grease ordered :)
 

Jonas

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Regarding stretching out the spring for cleaning:
I like to slightly modify the method that Simon mentioned post #44. I stretch out a small section of the spring, maybe 6 inches at a time, and let the already cleaned section relax and coil up on the side. As I work my way up the length of the spring, I can clean just as well as the first method, but I assume that the “slap in the face” that was mentioned would be drastically less violent should the spring break during the stretching and cleaning process.
 
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Snorty

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Regarding stretching out the spring for cleaning:
I like to slightly modify the method that Simon mentioned post #44. I stretch out a small section of the spring, maybe 6 inches at a time, and let the already cleaned section relax and coil up on the side. As I work my way up the length of the spring, I can clean just as well as the first method, but I assume that the “slap in the face” that was mentioned would be drastically less violent should the spring break during the stretching and cleaning process.
Thanks Jonas, I’ll keep that method in mind. I haven’t begun the cleaning just yet although did make a start on the arbor repair earlier. I’ll have a go at cleaning them tomorrowonce that is complete. appreciate the input!
 
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