1934 Elgin B.W. Raymond Grade 494 #34766397 BU. Aero U.S. Navy

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by John Matthews, Sep 19, 2019.

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  1. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #1 John Matthews, Sep 19, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2019
    My main interest is English pocket watches, normally prior to 1850, but I also have a few later examples with military provenance. Last week I discovered this watch when it appeared in one of my standard searches for 'boxed military watches'.

    20190919 001.jpg 20190919 002.jpg 20190919 004.jpg 20190919 005.jpg 20190919 006.jpg 20190919 007.jpg 20190919 007-2.jpg 20190919 008.jpg 20190919 008-2.jpg 20190919 009.jpg 20190919 010.jpg

    Prior to purchase, I did some preliminary research and found this thread from eight years ago. This convinced me of the quality and desirability of the watch; fortunately I was successful in the auction. I am hoping that those who contributed to the thread, such as Kent, will be interested in this example and will be able to steer my research.

    The initial post in the mentioned thread, provided a good description of the 'civilian model' and I have located the movement details in the Pocket Watch database where this example is identified as being assignment to the US Navy.

    Pocket Watch Database entry.JPG

    From the database I determined that 5000 were made and this watch was from the third run of five. It is clear that a portion were assigned to the Navy and I wondered, as the assignment is listed in the database entry, whether the number assigned to the military is known. If it has not been documented, is it possible to obtain it by querying the database? As I understand the military model was modified from lever set to pendant set, as is this example. I am uncertain whether all or only some had black dials.

    While I have some experience researching watches deployed in the British military, I have none with watches that were deployed in the American forces. Guidance and help in understanding how these navigational watches were used together with what information regarding deployment of such watches is available, would be particularly welcome.

    John
     
  2. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    John,

    It's a really nice example, and the box is quite nice as well.
    Great find.


    Rob
     
  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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  4. Jerry Freedman

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    #4 Jerry Freedman, Sep 19, 2019
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    John: I own Elgin 494 #33595687. It has a white dial.

    Jerry Freedman
     
  5. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Jerry - I checked your movement in the database ...

    upload_2019-9-19_23-21-30.png

    I wondered if it was the 'civilian version' as it is without B.U. Aero U.S. Navy in the title, so i decided to check the numbers that were listed here as being military ...

    upload_2019-9-19_23-28-12.png upload_2019-9-19_23-30-11.png upload_2019-9-19_23-32-9.png

    and none are titled B.U.Aero U.S. Navy - so that blows my idea that it might be possible to identify the military versions from the database entries.

    It seems to me that there are two possibilities. The most likely, I infer, is that the military assignment is not consistently recorded and is dependent on supplementary information, or, less likely, my acquisition, has a recorded characteristic that allowed its military assignment to be identified, e.g. the black dial.

    John
     
  6. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Rob - these Master Navigation Watches appear to have been designed and made, specifically for military use, whereas the grade 494, I infer, was essentially a high grade civilian watch, a number of which were ordered by the US Navy and can be identified as such by the engraving on the movement plates. Is that correct?

    John
     
  7. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Yes I believe you are correct.


    Rob
     
  8. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
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    Very nice purchase :)
     
  9. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    John:

    Thanks for your clear, sharp pictures. I'm afraid that I can't do anything to steer your research, as those watches for military use are outside of my main interest.

    Thanks also for linking to that earlier thread - it reminded me of why I stopped responding to one of the participant's posts (in threads after that one).
     
  10. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Kent - my thanks for your response and appreciation.

    A question to all - has anyone ever seen another Elgin 494 with a black dial?

    John
     
  11. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    John:

    Ed Ueberall and I have the following serial numbers of BWR Grade No. 494 wind indicator watches having black dials (all movements are marked "BU. Aero. US Navy") listed in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches:

    34,766,397- Just added
    34,900,495
    34,900,713
    34,900,724
    34,900,753
    34,900,757
     
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  12. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #12 John Matthews, Sep 20, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
    Kent - my thanks. I also appreciate the links as I am unfamiliar with the material on the American side.

    John

    Edit:

    So if I combine these serial numbers with those in the old thread, is this the composite list of known "BU Aero US Navy" examples?

    34766397 - black dial
    34900495 - black dial
    34900713 - black dial
    34900724 - black dial
    34900753 - black dial
    34900757 - black dial
    34900765 - listed in old thread, can I assume this had a white dial?

    I have checked the Pocket Watch database and only my example is listed as "BU Aero US Navy". Not being familiar with the data sources used to compile the database, I am unsure if this is significant - given it is from a lower sequence of serial numbers, could the earlier series have the additional information in the data source?
     
  13. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    John:

    You need not make that assumption; the above mentioned data base that Ed Ueberall and I maintain shows that on 1-Apr-2001, S/N 34,900,765 was reported (seen on eBay) as bearing a sunk seconds, Arabic numeral, metal dial signed "B.W. Raymond 23 jewels". If it was seen as being black, it ought to have been noted. However, as always, the data listed in our data base is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.

    From the dial description, this was likely to be a third party dial and not the one that was on the watch when shipped.


    I'm not sure to what data base you are referring. Nevertheless, it doesn't really matter. There isn't Elgin factory data (or if there is, it has yet to come to light) that notes which of these watches (or how many) were marked "BU. Aero. US Navy". That being the case, the only data that exists comes from reported surviving examples, such as the data base that Ed Ueberall and I maintain. While upon reaching a certain size (there are about 170 BWR grade 494 watches listed) one can begin to understand what Elgin might have done, its still a long way from knowing what Elgin did. Also, Ed and I do not claim to have records of all known BWR grade 494 watches, only those of which we were aware of and took the time to record.

    The only other BWR grade 494 watch of which Ed and I have a record as being marked "BU. Aero. US Navy" is S/N 34,766,400 for which no dial details were reported.
     
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  14. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Kent - again my appreciation for your input which has added to my understanding.

    So your sample size is ~170 grade 494 examples, of which 8 are believed to be "BU. Aero US Navy" viz.

    34766397 - black dial
    34766400 - no dial details
    34900495 - black dial
    34900713 - black dial
    34900724 - black dial
    34900753 - black dial
    34900757 - black dial
    34900765 - dial possibly a replacement

    The database I used was the Pocket Watch Database - this being the record for my watch.

    I have just checked the entry for 34766400 and like mine it also is designated as "BU. Aero US Navy", whereas all the other serial numbers above in the 349 series are not. As a matter of interest I have just entered a range of numbers between 34,766,001 and 34,766,999 and all had the "BU Aero US Navy" designation. This may or may not be significant, but I have sent an enquiry to the owner of the database seeking clarification.

    John
     
  15. PapaLouies

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    Hi John,
    I have the Factory Elgin Watch Materials Catalog.
    It lists the serial numbers for all obsolete and current grades of Elgin.
    I've found four runs of the Grade 494, 33595001 to 33596000 and 34766001 to 34767000 and 34900001 to 34901000 and 34948001 to 34949000 for a total of 4000 watches. My search has been thorough but not exhaustive.
    Regards, PL.
    The catalog's last listing 50000000 Grade 670.
     
  16. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Pl - my thanks for the posting the results of your search.

    This is from the Pocket Watch Database ....

    upload_2019-9-22_17-59-15.png

    Your first run corresponds to the 1932 run - I checked the first and the last number and they are recorded in the database as run 1 of 5. My watch 34766397 is in your second run but in the database this is in run 3 of 5. The numbers in your 3rd and 4th are identified in the database as 4th and 5th. This means if the database is correct the second run was the first in 1934 and the serial numbers would be between 33506000 and 34766001

    John
     
  17. PapaLouies

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    #17 PapaLouies, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
    John,
    33,483,001 to 33,507, 000 is 24,000 watches listed as Grade 488.
    Regards, PL

    John , The missing group is 34,682,001 to 34,683,000 Grade 494.
    I have the factory list that the Data Base uses.
     
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  18. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    PL - well found - confirmed in the database ...

    upload_2019-9-22_23-22-6.png

    Many thanks - that's helpful so we now have the five serial number ranges defined .

    John

    Edit - does the materials catalogue mention black dials?
     
  19. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I am pleased to acknowledge the most helpful response that I have received ...

    As you have discovered, the Elgin Grade 494 was produced in five distinct runs with an estimated total production of 5,000:

    33,595,001-33,596,000
    34,682,001-34,683,000
    34,766,001-34,767,000
    34,900,001-34,901,000
    34,948,001-34,949,000

    Examples from the third and fourth runs have been recorded or reported with the "B.U. Aero U.S. Navy" marking and black dial. Standard Grade 494 movements have been recorded from these runs as well. There are no known surviving records for individual watches within these runs. As a result, all relevant notes have been added from observations and should be evaluated within the inclusive context of "some movements in the run." I have updated the notes in the database for better clarity.

    The lowest serial number reported (unverified) with the "B.U. Aero U.S. Navy" marking is 34,766,111.

    I should also note that the box for your watch was manufactured under a separate contract and has been found paired with navigational watches from other companies.

    John
     
  20. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    These 5 runs had been listed on page 62 of Elgin Watch Company - Identification and Price Guide, Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1976 for decades, and on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Web Site.
     
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  21. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Having both the watch and the Aircraft Navigational Watch Box is a special thing.
    It could be that this Navigational Watch Box went with your watch or a prior
    watch collector paired them together. Either way it is special to have them both.
    I have a few metal Navigational watch boxes and their Navigational Watch counterparts
    and they do present well together. I think you did very well with
    this purchase I know I'm a little jealous;).



    Rob
     
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  22. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    I think it's quite unlikely that the U.S. Navy would accept an Aircraft Navigation Watch without a Hack feature. This therefore leads me to question the proper pairing of this Watch and Box.
    Navy contract No. N288S-1191 may describe the proper watch for this box.
    A few thoughts about the watch.
    The black dial suggests it was prepared for military use.
    The conversion from lever set to pendant set was likely done for convenience in the setting process.
    Why would a high grade 23 jewel WI BW Raymond be altered in this manor for the military?
    Could it be that a company other than Elgin altered these watches to provide the brass with high grade pocket watches?
    Regards, PL
     
  23. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    PL,
    My own 1942 Elgin A-13 B.W. Raymond Navigational watch does not have a hacking feature. The OP's
    watch has "Aero U.S. Navy" engraved on the movement. Personally I wouldn't question if this watch was used
    for Aero U.S. Navy. I believe these were 100% done at the factory. Is it
    possible that this box and watch don't go together, yes.
    But it seems appropriate that they do.


    Rob
     
  24. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    PL - I cannot say whether the box and watch have a common history, possibly not

    I note, however, that all of these watches are engraved "BU. Aero US Navy" as is the box, so I agree with Rob's sentiment they do complement each other and the watch fits perfectly in the box.

    I found this ...

    upload_2019-9-26_18-21-19.png

    Which confirms that the company existed at the time the watch was made.

    It is true that surviving examples are found with Hamilton military issued chronographs from the 1940's ...

    upload_2019-9-26_18-32-17.png

    If there is a reference source for US Navy contracts - it should be possible to obtain the date of the contract - this would help.

    I can see no evidence, in the hand, that the black dial, movement engraving and the setting modification was not done by Elgin. It seems to me very unlikely if a military contract was issued to supply 'modified' pocket watches, that the modification would not be done by the watch manufacturer, The dial is signed 'Elgin' which makes it even more unlikely, in my opinion, that the remaining alterations were not done by Elgin.

    My inference is that 'BU Aero US Navy' issued a contract to Elgin to supply a number of high quality watches, for their use and the contract included a specification of the requirement. Exactly how they were used, I have no idea, but one can only assume that accurate time-keeping was regarded as an important requirement and the specification did not call for a hack feature.

    Over to the military historians and the Elgin experts ....

    John
     
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  25. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Rob
     
  26. PapaLouies

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    Hi Rob,
    See my post at Thread: Master Navigation Watches: A-9; A-13; 5740: and 5740-1.
    Regards, PL
     
  27. PapaLouies

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    93014[1].jpg
    PL
     
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  28. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    #28 Kent, Sep 28, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
    This looks like the same article posted by Robert Sweet on May 23, 2011, thanks for reposting it.
     
  29. grtnev

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    #29 grtnev, Sep 28, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019

    Based on all of the available information, one had to conclude that all A-13’s left the factory with an intact hack feature.

    “The A-13 was the first variant to include the "hack" feature into the stem. Pulling out on the stem stopped the movement. The A-13 has a white dial, with the minutes marked from 0-55 and the hours marked from 0-23. "GCT" is marked below the center of the dial. The hands are narrow, baton style. The case is smooth and slightly smaller than the cases used on the later variants. To the best of my limited knowledge, this watch was only manufactured by Elgin.”

    Richard
     
  30. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    The above should be amended to say:

    “........The A-13 usually had a white dial, but also included a black dial version ....”

    Richard
     
  31. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Does anyone have a reference source that would provide the date when the contract for the boxes was first issued?

    John
     
  32. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Rob provided a link to a discussion of the cases here.

    The discussion identifies three variants ...

    upload_2019-9-29_17-47-3.png

    Each has a separate contract, but as can be seen, all end with F.S.S.C NO. 88-B-860 - which I thought might be the specification. When I did a search for the abbreviation all I could find related to the Navy was - Forces Surveillance Support Center ...

    The FSSC mission is to operate and maintain the Relocatable Over-the-Horizon Radar (ROTHR) system, collecting and disseminating tactically significant air and surface track data for evaluation, interpretation and over-the-horizon tracking of aircraft and ships suspected of trafficking.​

    So it appears, I've drawn a blank on understanding this common element and I have no definitive information on the dates of the contracts. It is clear that these boxes were in use to house watches in WWII, but whether they used to house watches, such as the Elgins, in the pre-war period, I do not know.

    John

     
  33. PapaLouies

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    Hi John,
    What if your watch was altered around 1940 or later? I do not detect a second sink in the black dial which, if produced by Elgin, would likely be constructed on their Wind Indicator blank. The second chapter is flawed and a bit crude for an Elgin product. I don't think the 494 Elgin would keep good time at altitude and thereby not be an adjunct to a 4992B in Aircraft Navigation.
    Regards, PL
     
  34. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    PL - Both the wind indicator and the second dial are sunk. I see no evidence that the watch has been altered, I see no reason to believe that it was not produced in 1934, as is, by Elgin

    This is my view

    As I say - I have no idea how they were used ...

    I am not familiar with the 4992B. After a quick search, I find that their first run was 1941.

    It seems to me that the evidence is that these watches were as I describe in my quote. I have no idea what the performance of the Elgin 494 would be at altitude and whether the Hamilton would have superior performance. However, the 494 was essential a civilian model that was procured by the US Navy, for a purpose, as yet unknown (to me at least); the later models were, I understand, specifically for military use and I infer their design was in response to a military specification, it would be expected that they performed at least adequately, in their deployment. Whether the procured 494s performed adequately, is not known to me. Perhaps, they didn't, perhaps they did, or perhaps their use and performance, informed the design of the military specifications that followed.

    All this is mere speculation. The information required is the contract that was issued for the supply of the Elgin 494 to the US Navy, documentation of why the contract was issued, i.e. the intended use, exactly how they were deployed and their performance during deployment.

    In the absence of such information we are left with mere speculation.

    John
     
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  35. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Sorry - this is probably not correct. What I should have said is ... In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I think it is most likely that a contract was issued to Elgin to provide a number of watches, at an unknown time. The contract was fulfilled by Elgin using grade 494 watches, that they had in stock. It was Elgin who modified the watches as required by the contract.

    PL - it may have been after the war in Europe had commenced or in the years leading up to hostilities, If we could find the contract details that would tell us.

    John
     
  36. PapaLouies

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    Hi John,
    I would need to see some photos of black dials on 494 lever set watches before being convinced that your dial is an Elgin product.
    Though your watch is in an Aircraft Navigational Watch Box I doubt it could ever be used in Aircraft Navigation ergo your watch is in the wrong box.
    An interesting bit in the 1963 THE NAVIGATOR magazine.
    " On Thursday, February 10, 1938, Hq 2nd Bomb Group issued orders to prepare for a flight to Buenos Aires, Argentina, by way of Miami, Fla., and Lima, Peru.
    Six B-17 airplanes comprised the flight and were to navigate each leg of the trip as individuals, etc."

    " 2. Watches - At least two watches were carried in each plane. Type A-6, A-4, or A-3. These difficulties were experienced in regard to watches.
    a. No matter how carefully a watch is rated on the ground and no matter how accurate the rate may be, when the watch is placed in an airplane the rate is unpredictable, even changing from gain to loss."

    This changed when the Hamilton 4992B came along.
    Regards, PL
     
  37. grtnev

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    #37 grtnev, Sep 30, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
    Let me begin by stating that the following opinion, based on the references that I have, and $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee.

    I do not believe that the box and the watch being discussed in this thread were originally together. Although the box is clearly marked "BU. AERO. U.S. Navy" it is also clearly marked "Aircraft Navigational Watch Box". These boxes were generally used to store the Elgin A-13 or Hamilton 4992B navigation watches when physically not in service in the airplane. When in service in an aircraft, the navigation watch was usually mounted in a circular metal container with a removable top. The top of the container has a viewing window. The bottom of the container has an internal 4-spring suspension system and holder that held the navigation watch securely in place and protected it while in flight. (The metal design helped protect the watch from stray magnetic fields while the spring suspension mounting system protected the watch from shock.) The wooden box shown in this thread is of the type used to transport the navigation watch when not installed in an airplane.

    The watch being discussed is very similar to the Motor Torpedo Boat (PT Boat) watch described and shown on page 384 of "Military Timepieces" by Marvin E. Whitney. Figure 8 on page 384 shows what I believe to be the same watch except that the example shown in Whitney has a white minute numeral dial whereas the example being discussed here has a black, non minute numeral dial.

    The specification for such watches, according to Whitney, is 18W4C, dated 2 February 1931 which is similar to the original 1904 specification.

    So I'd conclude that this watch is a correct pre-WW2; Elgin manfactured, Motor Torpedo Boat watch that at some point was combined with an aircraft master navigational watch transportation wooden box.

    Thanks for sharing - nice piece.

    Richard

    Elgin Pre-WW2 Motor Topedo Boat (PT Boat) Watch.jpg
     
  38. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #38 John Matthews, Sep 30, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
    Richard - my thanks for your contribution and particularly for reproducing the page - I assume from the Whitney publication.

    The photograph at the bottom right, of the Elgin torpedo boat watch, certainly has a very similar dial to that of this 494. Also the 494 has the Naval Observatory circle (N) followed by the last four digits on the back as indicated in this paragraph ...

    upload_2019-9-30_22-47-5.png

    Much seems to fit. There is an inference that the majority of the watches were purchased earlier and the one illustrated is of a 21 jewel Elgin. However, perhaps it would be unwise to rule out that the use of the grade 494's being used to satisfy the later specification of 1931.

    I also note that earlier on the page, when referring to this revision of the torpedo-boat watch specification, there is this ...

    upload_2019-9-30_22-59-3.png

    So it would appear that the torpedo-boat watches were also supplied in a box - which I infer was also to store the watch when it was not in service.

    Does anyone have any information regarding these boxes?

    However, I am still not convinced this 494 was used as a torpedo boat watch. I don't understand why a torpedo boat watch would have its movement engraved BU Aero US Navy, which I infer is a designation of the US Navy's air divisions - I believe it may stand for Bureau of Aeronautics, US Navy.

    I thought I would try to track down the torpedo boat watch specification ... I found this ...


    upload_2019-9-30_23-37-24.png

    No mention of the Aeronautics - simply Navy Department. Whereas the specification for the master navigational watches does ...

    upload_2019-9-30_23-48-14.png

    So despite the similarities with the illustrated Elgin torpedo boat watch, I am not convinced that grade 494 military examples were used as torpedo boat watches. The Bureau of Aeronautics, US Navy engraving on the movement [BU Aero US Navy], I infer signifies the division of the Navy that issued the procurement contract.

    I am the first to admit that the probability that the watch and navigation box started life together, is very remote, but as I said earlier

    John
     
  39. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    #39 grtnev, Sep 30, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
    Yup - I missed that small detail - as I said, opinion +$1.50......

    The Bureau of Aeronautics (Bu Aero) was the U.S. Navy's material-support organization for naval aviation from 1921 to 1959. The Bureau had "cognizance" (i.e., responsibility) for the design, procurement, and support of Naval aircraft and related systems. Aerial weapons, however, were under the cognizance of the Navy's Bureau of Ordnance (Bu Ord). The movement marking clearly indicates BU AERO and hence your watch was procured by said Bureau.

    I also found a similar watch, s/n 34900741, at this link: Elgin Rare BU. Aero U.S. Navy G.C.T. 23 Jewel Wind Indicator, circa | Lot #60096 | Heritage Auctions. (Since the pictures aren't mine, I can't post them, you'll have to go to this link yourself to see the watch.) Also, from the Elgin Database Website ([ELGIN] Pocket Watch Serial Numbers: Date, Grade, Jewels): both your watch and s/n 34900741 are Elgin 23 jewel, wind indicator, grade 494, B.W. Raymond marked movement, adj 6 positions, ca: 1933. There were 5000 grade 494 movements made by Elgin. (IMHO, the pocket watch database that you sourced is a good first start. However, for Elgin watches, the above referenced Elgin database is a better reference.)

    Like your watch, s/n 34900741 movement is marked BU. AERO. U.S. Navy. Unlike your watch, the dial is also marked, just above the center of the black dial: BU AERO U S Navy G C T. Also, I noticed that in an above post, either 6 or 8 additional grade 494 movements are listed with movements marked BU AERO U. S. Navy.

    Definitely looks like BU AERO procured a quantity of grade 494 watches for navigation purposes for the U.S. Navy avialtion. Note: The G C T marking on the dial of s/n 34900741 indicates that the watch was be set to Greenwich Civil Time - not the local time - also a clue that the watch was used for navigational purposes. Also, I'd now say that there is a good possibility that your watch and the wooden box that it is in have always been together.

    Good thread - for me new information regarding the family of watches that the U.S. Navy used for aerial navigation.

    Richard
     
  40. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #40 John Matthews, Oct 1, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
    Richard - my thanks for your +$1.50 additional contribution and the link - to me worth more than $1.50 ...

    So the updated list

    34766397 - black dial
    34766400 - no dial details
    34900495 - black dial
    34900713 - black dial
    34900724 - black dial
    34900741 - black dial marked BU Aero US Navy GCT
    34900753 - black dial
    34900757 - black dial
    34900765 - dial possibly a replacement

    If I'm not mistaken, the GCT marking, means that particular watch was used in WWII and I wonder whether that was added later by the Bureau - does this given us any further information regarding how these watches were used? I purchased my watch from a dealer in Germany, but unfortunately he did not provide any information about where it was obtained.

    That would be remarkable if they have had a common history. I agree it does add weight to the possibility - I wish it was possible to establish details of the procurement contracts for the 494 watches and (separately) the boxes.

    John

    EDIT - I note that auction watch does not have the (N) serial# stamped on the back.
     
  41. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I also note that the case is a Star Watch Case gold filled - I wonder if this may not be the original.

    John
     
  42. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    I fail to see how you could set a 494 to G.C.T. time without a hack feature.
    If you could set the 494 correctly it would be of little use at altitude if it is not equipped with the Elgin Invar balance and white metal hairspring.
    Regards, PL
     
  43. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    #43 grtnev, Oct 1, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
    Hack setting is a convenience - not a requirement for navigation.

    As long as you know the difference between the grade 494 and the master chronometer and that difference is constant one can still make the necessary navigational calculations - just have to adjust for the time difference accordingly.

    I’m not sure I follow your comment regarding the hairspring.

    What would preclude the 494 from being used at altitude?

    Most, if not all, previously issued navigation watches (before ca: 1933) did not have invar balances or hairsprings and they all were definitely used effectively at altitude.

    Richard
     
  44. PapaLouies

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    aircraft navigational watch and wood box wow.
    Regards,PL
     
  45. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    A google search of the foregoing phrase will show the most likely proper pairing of the watch and box.
    PL
     

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