1929 International Time Recording Timeclock

[ncpi]

I just picked up this pretty complete International Time Recording Timeclock. Appears to be made in 1929 based on the ibm web site and the s/n 377738.

Wish me luck. It "looks" like it should work, but I won't know until I get the new suspension spring I ordered from timesavers.

...Bill

 

[harold bain]

Looks good, Bill. Even has a new looking ink ribbon. Does it punch OK?

 

[soaringjoy]

A nice piece of "machinery".
I really like those ITR movements, but I also get the quivers
when working on the springs..., whew!

Jurgen

 

[bkerr]

These are one of my favorite clocks. Yep those springs are powerful!! Check the EW for pivot , it is often worn. I guess because it has so much power behind it?

Nice looking one!

 

[ncpi]

Looks good, Bill. Even has a new looking ink ribbon. Does it punch OK?

Punches great!

However I'll need to get (or make) the shaft from the clock to the timer mechanism.
-> posts merged by system <-

These are one of my favorite clocks. Yep those springs are powerful!! Check the EW for pivot , it is often worn. I guess because it has so much power behind it?

Nice looking one!

Thanks. I couldn't pass it up...

Newbie question for you, can you explain the best way to check the "EW for pivot"?

Oh while I am asking...is there a good cleaner to use on the face of these that won't damage it?

Thanks, Bill

 

[harold bain]

You might get away with a damp cloth, or a magic erasor. Be very careful with the numbers, they are easily removed with over aggressive cleaning.

 

[bkerr]

Agreed Harold. I would only use a slightly damp cloth (water) to get dust off.

Take a look at the front plate (you need to remove the dial). First thing is to look for black grease type material in the pivots (pivot poop). This is the first indication that the movement is beginging to wear and may need a bushing replacement. You will be able to identify the escape wheel by looking toward the top of the gear train for the wheel that has sharp looking teeth. Once you see that wheel, check the lantern pinions (little wires that act as gear teeth for the gear below) these can also wear.

The big problem is that the teeth on the ew are prone to bending over. If the wheel moves too far away from the verge the wheel may skip (bend) a tooth or two. You can also adjust the verge to compensate to some degree.

Do not remove the verge with the power on the movement, bad things may happen. It's does have a bunch of power with those two big springs wound up!

Good luck

 

[ncpi]

Thank you guys. Your answers are why I asked before I cleaned. There is some kind of gunk around the "12", but I will leave as-is.

Will check out as you recommend when the new suspension spring comes in and I do the install.

...Bill

 

[ncpi]

Agreed Harold. I would only use a slightly damp cloth (water) to get dust off.

Take a look at the front plate (you need to remove the dial). First thing is to look for black grease type material in the pivots (pivot poop). This is the first indication that the movement is beginging to wear and may need a bushing replacement. You will be able to identify the escape wheel by looking toward the top of the gear train for the wheel that has sharp looking teeth. Once you see that wheel, check the lantern pinions (little wires that act as gear teeth for the gear below) these can also wear.

The big problem is that the teeth on the ew are prone to bending over. If the wheel moves too far away from the verge the wheel may skip (bend) a tooth or two. You can also adjust the verge to compensate to some degree.

Do not remove the verge with the power on the movement, bad things may happen. It's does have a bunch of power with those two big springs wound up!

Good luck

Got the suspension spring from timesavers. Unfortunately it was too long and the wire that inserts in it to drive the Verge/EW wouldn't seat in the slot on the pendulum. I disassembled one end of the suspension spring and shorted it so the distance between pins was approx 0.75", which allowed the wire to slip into the slot. The pendulum had been repaired at one time and it may have been inadvertently lengthened. I am just hoping the suspension spring won't be too stiff in the shorter length. The EW looked fine and the pivots looked clean, I don't see any reason why it won't run. Its ticking now, so we'll see if it keeps going.

I added a pic of the pendulum. If anyone knows the proper distance from the hanger to the slot for the verge wire, please let me know.

Thanks...Bill

 

[harold bain]

Bill, the only loose one I have is 5 1/4 inches from the top of the wear plate to the top of the hook. Your's looks like it may have been shortened. But, if it works, and can be regulated to keep time, it should be OK.

 

[ncpi]

Harold,

After the clock ran for 24 hours I re-installed the face and hands. I noticed it seemed very hard to move the hands to adjust the time, so rather than force it thought I'd ask here...is there a secret to adjusting the time?

...Bill

 

[harold bain]

Bill, stiff hands are normal on these. Just make sure your grip on the minute hand is close to the center, to avoid bending it.

 

[ncpi]

And rotate hands only CW, correct?

The springs are "fun" to wind too. Its a pretty "manly" clock!

...Bill

 

[harold bain]

Bill, without the recorder hooked up, it doesn't matter which way you turn the hands. It is only the recorder mechanism that can be damaged by forcing backwards. The time movement doesn't care.
Yep those springs are fun to work with. Wouldn't care to be bit by one.

 

[ncpi]

Good to know. Thanks Harold for all your help!

 

[harold bain]

You are very welcome. Good to see another of these industrial strength clocks being brought back to life.

 

[ncpi]

Well...I am a bit perplexed trying to adjust to keep proper time. Appreciate expert opinion here, please.

I'll try to explain...

First, the pendulum seems to have been repaired at the hanger as I mentioned earlier in the postings (see pic on page 1). When it was repaired, it actually seems to have been lengthened (at least above the slide hole for the crutch wire) as I had to shorten the suspension spring that I bought from timesavers from 1 3/16" to 3/4" long so the crutch wire would fit in the slot (it currently is at the very top of the slot).

However the distance from the top of the slot to the hanger is only 4.7" (and the slot itself is 0.8") which is shorter than yours Harold. but if mine was as long as yours (5.25") I would have to shorten the suspension spring to almost zero for the crutch wire to fit in the pendulum slot. Can't very well do that.

Timekeeping... Note, with the pendulum bob screw at the bottom, it falls pretty close to where the pendulum arc/scratch is on the back of the case (see pic). However it lost 83 minutes in a 780 minute time period. Thats losing 1 min every 9.40 minutes. With the pendulum shortened with the bob at the upper range (0.4" of the threaded rod is exposed) it still lost 86 minutes in 913 minutes of run time. That losing 1 minute every 10.62 minutes...better, as you would expect with a shorter pendulum, but nowhere close to where it needs to be.

To get the overall pendulum shorter, I really can't shorten the suspension spring much more. I could shorten the pendulum itself, re-doing the repair. But its so far off in timekeeping that that almost seems futile. Could it be that the now stiffer modified suspension spring is causing the problem? Maybe I need to go back to the longer suspension spring and shorten the pendulum where that repair was done? BTW, The beat sounds good and the pendulum swings about to the 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 measurement on the scale on the rear of the case.

...Thanks...Bill

 

[harold bain]

You might be as well off to make a new stick.
On mine, the crutch wire is about 1/4 inch below the bottom of the movement. If yours is higher, it may have been broken and reformed.
Alternatively, you could possibly move the wear plate further down to fit the longer suspension, but it sounds like you need to have a shorter pendulum. I usually experiment to see where the ideal is before making any changes to the stick. It's better to alter the stick from the bottom if shortening it, but possibly previous owner went from the top.
The bob can slide as far up the wood as needed to find it's regulation point, before altering the stick.

 

[ncpi]

Harold,

I think you're on to something. My crutch wire is much higher. its about 0.55" higher than the brass plate at the rear of the movement. Its about 5.5" from the pivot point to the crutch wire.

I am trying to think that through...would that make it run slow?

The solution might actually be to extend the crutch wire to a lower point. sounds like yours is almost 0.8" lower than mine. If I did that I probably need a longer suspension spring.

May not be the pendulum at all, but rather a broken/re-bent (and now much shorter) crutch wire.

What do you think?

Thanks, Bill

 

[harold bain]

I just checked 4 other ITR/IBM's that I have, and the crutch wire is the same length on all of them, so this probably is your source of problem. Lengthening that wire would have allowed the suspension spring you bought to have worked as it was. Still may need to change the pendulum length, but it's a good place to start.
I have found that a shorter crutch will effect the total length needed to regulate a pendulum.

 

[ncpi]

Thanks for confirming with the other clocks. I now am pretty sure its the problem and agree, that original suspension spring would have worked.

I am gong to try straightening the existing crutch wire and attaching another L-shaped wire to extend it. I will see if I can work something up will allow me to adjust the length by sliding the L-Shaped wire up/down. If I can get it closer to keeping proper time that way, I'll order a new suspension spring and attach the crutch wire addition more permanently.

Thanks for the ideas...I'll report back here what I find.

Thanks, Bill

 

[harold bain]

Bill, if I was doing that, I would cut it about halfway down, and use a piece of hollow brass tube to extend it. But, the best repair would be a new piece of wire coming off the anchor arbor, so the repair isn't obvious.

 

[ncpi]

OK...I pulled out the movement and sure enough there definitely was a broken/re-bent crutch wire. See pic.

I bent the crutch wire straight and temporarily extended it with an L-shaped wire. With the current length of the suspension spring, I only could align the new bend at about the bottom of the mechanism. Its back together in the clock and running, I'll see how much this improves timekeeping. Its definitely swinging further now, about 4 - 4 on the rear case markings.

I agree Harold. I will try to do a better repair when I do the final repair. I was a little worried about trying to get that crutch wire out of the shaft without bending the shaft, but may try to bend up a whole new wire and replace if I can. I am probably going to have to get a new suspension spring as well...knew I should have bought a couple when I ordered

 

[ncpi]

Extending the crutch wire didn't help much. With the pendulum as short as possible with the bob at the upper range (0.4" of the threaded rod is exposed) it still lost 62 minutes in 664 minutes of run time. That losing 1 minute every 10.71 minutes. (That compared to losing 1 minute every 10.62 minutes with the bob in the same position before I extended the crutch wire).

Ideas? Think this really could just be the length of the suspension spring? Seems like I would have to shorten that pendulum a pretty fair amount...and clearly it would not have been that short before.

...Bill

 

[harold bain]

What markings are on the movement? Post a picture showing the escapewheel. Some of these used a very short pendulum. Your clock was designed for a long pendulum, but the movement may not be original to the clock.

 

[ncpi]

Here are pics of the movement and EW. The numbers are 88 in the upper left and 037 in the middle.

 

[harold bain]

Looks about the same as mine:


Perhaps your movement needs some work?

 

[bkerr]

Count the number of teeth on the EW. That will confirm the length of the stick. I had a clock that I bought from our local mart. The seller said he could not get it to keep time. Well guess what, the movement had been replaced and there was no way to get the correct length stick in that case, it would hit the recorder. The 88 is the reference to the number of beats.

 

[ncpi]

Harold, our mechanisms are slightly different. I have winding indicators, see pic. Also, note that the deadman is adjusted higher on yours than mine. That might be the one change I can make to speed this up. Right now the pallet goes almost all the way to the bottom of the EW tooth when its running.

Bkerr. the EW looks to have 50 teeth, 13 between pallets.

 

[harold bain]

I think mine has the same numbers.

 

[ncpi]

Harold, If I count the number of teeth between pallets on yours it looks like 11. Mine is 13, that might not matter, but what are the total number of teeth on your EW?

Also...what depth does each pallet go into the tooth when its operating?

I can't figure out what really is causing mine to run slow, but trying to look at differences here.

Thanks, Bill

 

[harold bain]

Mine has 44 teeth (half of 88). I have another clock (a Cincinatti) with a 50 tooth wheel (marked 100), that takes a 10 1/2 inch pendulum.
Looks like someone switched your escapewheel.
Only way for it to keep time is a shorter pendulum, or less teeth on the escapewheel.
Pallet depth won't have that great an effect on timekeeping, just on pendulum amplitude.

 

[ncpi]

Wow, this forum is great! Well...the good news is that we figured it out. Any idea where I could find a replacement 44 Tooth Escape Wheel for one of these?

Oh...I wonder if the deadman is different too. what is the distance between pallets on yours?

...Bill

 

[harold bain]

I don't know where you are likely to find an escapewheel for this movement. the anchor on mine is about 1 1/2 inches across. Likely the same as yours.

 

[harold bain]

Bill, Timesavers part # 10461 is a 40 tooth escapewheel for a Seth Thomas # 2. It is 1 11/16 in diameter.
This could be what you need, as these movements were originally made by Seth Thomas.
www.timesavers.com

 

[ncpi]

Thanks Harold,

I am worried that 40T would be too fast. I think that 44T you have is just about right. Here's my reasoning from my earlier data.

With the Pendulum in the long position my dial time / actual time was:
697min / 780min = 0.894

With the Pendulum in the short position my dial time / actual time was:
827min / 913min = 0.906

With the Pendulum in the short position (after extending the crutch wire) my dial time / actual time was:
602min / 664min = 0.907

the 44T/50T = 0.88 which is pretty close. Especially if I extend the Pendulum further by going back to a new 1 3/16" (1.1875") suspension spring from the shortened 3/4" (0.75") one.

However the 40T/50T = 0.8 which I think would be too fast.

Is my train if thought correct here?

BTW...my EW diameter looks like 1 23/32" which would be close to that Seth Thomas 40T one, too bad its not 44T.

Last the distance from Pallet center to Pallet Center on mine is 1.2"

 

[bkerr]

Now you see why I said to count the number of teeth in the EW.
Did you show what you plate was stamped? I'll go back and look.
I may have the part you need. PM me.

 

[harold bain]

Yeah, I guess 40 would be almost as far out the other way as 50 is now. 44 is what you need.

 

[ncpi]

Plate stamped 88, it is at post #26 . PM'd you too, bkerr.

Thanks, Bill

 

[ncpi]

Just for completeness, I looked at the gear train and verified that only the EW must have been replaced with the wrong one. Might be useful to others searching the forums in the future so here's what I found:

Working up from the minute hand shaft.

Minute Hand Shaft (should rotate 1 rev / hr) has a 64T brass gear that is driven by a 8T Lantern gear on the intermediate shaft.

The Intermediate Shaft has that 8T Lantern gear and a 60T brass gear. The 60T brass gear is driven by a 8T Lantern gear on the EW shaft. The Intermediate shaft should turn 64/8 x 1 rev/hr = 8 rev/hr

The EW shaft should turn 60/8 x 8 rev/hr = 60 rev/hour for proper timekeeping.

The plate is stamped 88. Counting the beats and timing for 1 minute, I could 88-90 beats. Pretty close, but the pendulum is a little short because of the shortened suspension spring. So almost right on. The calculated pendulum length for this Period is about 18.2 in. Mine is slightly shorter.

A 44T EW would be the correct one for the gearing.

A 50T EW would make it run slow by the exact amount I am seeing. Also the calculated Pendulum length would be 14.1 in for a 100 beat (1.2 sec period).

So...fully verified, this should be a 44T EW. When the 50T was installed they did not change out gearing to be appropriate.

Thanks for everyone's help here. Now I just need to get the parts/repair done.

...Bill