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1910 8 day sears- cross car clock running fast

Darrmann39

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I have this sears- cross 8 day car clock that's running twice as fast as it should.
I timed the second hand and it's almost right in half
It winds up and adjusts on the side.
Any ideas why this would happen?

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Salsagev

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Has the clock been serviced recently? You may need to move the regulating lever to slower. As far is I’ve known, that regulating lever does not “balance”(is not meant to) like a RC car axle balance has on the bottom. It could be fast based on various factors.
 

Darrmann39

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Has the clock been serviced recently? You may need to move the regulating lever to slower. As far is I’ve known, that regulating lever does not “balance”(is not meant to) like a RC car axle balance has on the bottom. It could be fast based on various factors.
I don't know about servicing. I just picked it up today There's a s/f Lever on the very top that i moved all the way to s but that's way faster then any s/f problem I've ever dealt with. I'm used to wall clocks and pendulums

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Kevin W.

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A short rotation of the balance wheel will make it run fast. Normally meaning wear in the clock, and it needs a proper clean and oil as well. Which ,means it should come apart to do this.
 
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agemo

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Hi,
The balance-spring may be magnetized, a symptom also seen on watches.

Amicalement GG ;)
 
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shutterbug

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I don't know about your clock in particular, but many older clocks have a seconds bit that makes one rotation every 45 seconds but the clock keeps time just fine. Time your clock for one rotation of the minute hand and see what you get that way. Let us know.
 

Darrmann39

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I don't know about your clock in particular, but many older clocks have a seconds bit that makes one rotation every 45 seconds but the clock keeps time just fine. Time your clock for one rotation of the minute hand and see what you get that way. Let us know.
Second hand is exactly in time with the minute hand. And both are going twice as fast as they should. In five minutes time on phone the clock moved ten minutes
 

shutterbug

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It might be skipping teeth. I would advise not running it until we get it sorted.
 
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Darrmann39

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It might be skipping teeth. I would advise not running it until we get it sorted.
So i see no skipping going on at any point.
I followed all the wheels inside up to the escapement.
I did read some posts you were involved in quite awhile ago about floating balances and short cycling. I think that's what i might be dealing with just not sure why.
I'm a rookie at this, I've taken a few movements apart cleaned and assembled with good results but once it gets complicated like this I'm lost.
 

shutterbug

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Yes, short rotation will cause speeding - but you are talking about double speed. That is very unusual.
 
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agemo

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The spiral seems off-center. :emoji_thinking:
 
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roughbarked

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Simply cannot demagnetize a hairspring while it is in the watch/clock. Needs to be removed from the balance cock for that and even then it should be oiled to stop it tangling in the demagnetizer.
Would need to see a video of it running to determine whether it is magnetic or not.
Yes, the hairspring is a little off round which means also that it won't be concentric but this is hardly enough to make it run twice as fast.

Twice as fast indicates that something has been changed. ie: the mainspring or the hairspring?

As to needing cleaning. The oil sinks look dry and grunged with old pivot poop.
No oil is always a good way to get the watch misbehaving.

I'd be disassembling and cleaning/reoiling the whole thing if it were mine. As a test, try oiling the pallet pins. See if that changes anything.
 
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Darrmann39

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Simply cannot demagnetize a hairspring while it is in the watch/clock. Needs to be removed from the balance cock for that and even then it should be oiled to stop it tangling in the demagnetizer.
Would need to see a video of it running to determine whether it is magnetic or not.
Yes, the hairspring is a little off round which means also that it won't be concentric but this is hardly enough to make it run twice as fast.

Twice as fast indicates that something has been changed. ie: the mainspring or the hairspring?

As to needing cleaning. The oil sinks look dry and grunged with old pivot poop.
No oil is always a good way to get the watch misbehaving.

I'd be disassembling and cleaning/reoiling the whole thing if it were mine. As a test, try oiling the pallet pins. See if that changes anything.
I did clean it just superficially around the whole area around the escapement and oiled the pivots. I've taken a few larger clock movements apart and changed mainspring with success but thus tiny escapement and delicate floating balance is making me think I'll have someone a little more knowledgeable look at it
Especially since doubt i can get replacement for at least that area.
I have been unsuccessful at making my videos in the right format to upload.
 

Darrmann39

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I'd agree that it may be difficult to find parts for this clock.
It does need more than a supeficial cleaning though.
If you don't feel confident about that then you should find a competent watch repairer somewhere near you.
So assuming i did break it down to clean and oil it. I don't think that alone would solve the problem of double the speed.
I guess in my mind and you said possible mainspring. But I'm pretty sure I'll be seeking better help then myself to do it thanks
 

Darrmann39

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Mainsprings don't perform properly if they have no lubrication.
I'm a carpenter , tinkerer gotten into clocks in the last year, clearly a rookieat this . In my head I'm thinking a spring sticking or not unwinding correctly because of oil would slow it down.
 

Darrmann39

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John Harrison was a carpenter.

He'd probably clean and oil the mainspring to see if it made a difference.
One possibility is that someone has fitted the wrong mainspring though it boggles the mind as to how this could be possible.
He would probably know when he was over his head to.
After taking another look I'm positive i should take it to someone. 3 plates tiny tiny parts. Thanks for your help greatly appreciated.

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roughbarked

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Yes, as I pointed out above. If you don't feel confident, best to get a trained watchmaker to look at it. This is a very fine clock.
Interestingly though.
Surely, even if the Boston clock company was around in the 19th century which they were but were there also many cars in the 19th century?
I am aware that they made carriage clocks and that carriages eventually became cars.
The Boston clock company ceased in 1894.

Snipped this from an ebay link:
This is a Rare Antique Working 19th Century Boston Clock Company (Early Chelsea Clock Company) Car Auto Automobile Clock with Steering Column ...

The history:


The Boston Clock Company was organized May 29,1884, as successor to the Harvard Clock Company which had been organized October 11, 1880 by James H. Gerry, Joseph H. Eastman and others and primarily produced wall clocks, often similar in style to some of the Howard models, but of lesser quality.

Joseph H. Eastman became manager of the Boston Clock Company and the firm is listed in Boston directories from 1885 through 1894. The firm was a large producer of good grade imitation French "carriage," "crystal regulator" clocks and mantel clocks, often in style and onyx cases. Most of their clocks utilized a good quality movement with a platform or watchxlike balance escapement and had tandem winding whereby the time and strike were wound by turning the key in opposite directions in a single keyhole.

By 1890, the firm issued a trade catalog illustrating more than 50 different models. These clocks usually had porcelain dials, and the style and onyx cases used for the mantel clocks, were no doubt imported.
In 1894, the Boston Clock Company failed and Joseph Eastman tried to revive the firm as the Eastman Clock Company the following year. Eastman purchased land on Everett Street in Chelsea on September 13, 1895 and borrowed some $7,000 and commenced building a factory. The Eastman Clock Company was shown in Boston directories only for the year 1896 and Eastman's creditors foreclosed on the firm October 29, 1896.​
From https://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteReferencePages/BostonClockCompany.html
 
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Darrmann39

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Yes, as I pointed out above. If you don't feel confident, best to get a trained watchmaker to look at it. This is a very fine clock.
Interestingly though.
Surely, even if the Boston clock company was around in the 19th century which they were but were there also many cars in the 19th century?
I am aware that they made carriage clocks and that carriages eventually became cars.
The Boston clock company ceased in 1894.

Snipped this from an ebay link:
This is a Rare Antique Working 19th Century Boston Clock Company (Early Chelsea Clock Company) Car Auto Automobile Clock with Steering Column ...

The history:


The Boston Clock Company was organized May 29,1884, as successor to the Harvard Clock Company which had been organized October 11, 1880 by James H. Gerry, Joseph H. Eastman and others and primarily produced wall clocks, often similar in style to some of the Howard models, but of lesser quality.

Joseph H. Eastman became manager of the Boston Clock Company and the firm is listed in Boston directories from 1885 through 1894. The firm was a large producer of good grade imitation French "carriage," "crystal regulator" clocks and mantel clocks, often in style and onyx cases. Most of their clocks utilized a good quality movement with a platform or watchxlike balance escapement and had tandem winding whereby the time and strike were wound by turning the key in opposite directions in a single keyhole.

By 1890, the firm issued a trade catalog illustrating more than 50 different models. These clocks usually had porcelain dials, and the style and onyx cases used for the mantel clocks, were no doubt imported.
In 1894, the Boston Clock Company failed and Joseph Eastman tried to revive the firm as the Eastman Clock Company the following year. Eastman purchased land on Everett Street in Chelsea on September 13, 1895 and borrowed some $7,000 and commenced building a factory. The Eastman Clock Company was shown in Boston directories only for the year 1896 and Eastman's creditors foreclosed on the firm October 29, 1896.​
From https://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteReferencePages/BostonClockCompany.html
That is interesting seeing this is supposedly 1910. The guy i got it from said 1910 and found a couple very similar circa 1910 . That's 16 years after they shut.
 
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roughbarked

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Does the clock sound like and look like it is banking?

From WIKI:
'Knocking' or 'banking'
Even if the mainsprings were not prone to breakage, too much force during winding caused another problem in early watches, called 'knocking' or 'banking'.[12][13] If very little slack was left in the spring after winding ('overwinding"), the pressure of the last turn of the winding knob put the end of the spring under excessive tension, which was locked in by the last click of the ratchet. So the watch ran with excessive drive force for several hours, until the extra tension in the end of the spring was relieved. This made the balance wheel rotate too far in each direction, causing the impulse pin on the wheel to knock against the back of the fork horns. This caused the watch to gain time, and could break the impulse pin. In older watches this was prevented with 'stopwork'. In modern watches this is prevented by designing the 'click' with some 'recoil' (backlash), to allow the arbor to rotate backward after winding by about two ratchet teeth, enough to remove excess tension.
 
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Darrmann39

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Does the clock sound like and look like it is banking?

From WIKI:
'Knocking' or 'banking'
Even if the mainsprings were not prone to breakage, too much force during winding caused another problem in early watches, called 'knocking' or 'banking'.[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] If very little slack was left in the spring after winding ('overwinding"), the pressure of the last turn of the winding knob put the end of the spring under excessive tension, which was locked in by the last click of the ratchet. So the watch ran with excessive drive force for several hours, until the extra tension in the end of the spring was relieved. This made the balance wheel rotate too far in each direction, causing the impulse pin on the wheel to knock against the back of the fork horns. This caused the watch to gain time, and could break the impulse pin. In older watches this was prevented with 'stopwork'. In modern watches this is prevented by designing the 'click' with some 'recoil' (backlash), to allow the arbor to rotate backward after winding by about two ratchet teeth, enough to remove excess tension.
I don't think so. It seems the balance wheel is not turning far enough seems to be short cycling if anything . And it's an 8 day and working double time should be almost unwound going on 5 days now.
And it's still going double time. Now I'm comparing it with the turn i see in my hermle with the floating balance.
 

roughbarked

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That is interesting seeing this is supposedly 1910. The guy i got it from said 1910 and found a couple very similar circa 1910 . That's 16 years after they shut.
The clock could easily have still been in stock at Sears. They may have been still fitted for years after if the stock had all been bought up. However, I'd like to see the car it was fitted to that was for sale as new in 1910.
 
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Darrmann39

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The clock could easily have still been in stock at Sears. They may have been still fitted for years after if the stock had all been bought up. However, I'd like to see the car it was fitted to that was for sale as new in 1910.
Trying to help you at least comprehend how the watch works even if you find that the problem is beyond your capacity to repair.
Read this thread? https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/balanc...sible-repetitions-per-minute-and-hour.136935/

Earlier on I did mention appplyiing some oil to the pallet faces. Did you try that?
This is from the first response "

In a watch who's balance has weak amplitude (small degree of turn) the balance moves slower but has less distance to travel when interacting with the fork. On a watch who's amplitude is good/greater the balance swings faster but has farther to go"
I seem to have the opposite
A balance wheel that has a small amount of turn but also is faster
What i also got was that either way it should 'balance" out.
I actually oiled the pivots. I'll oil the pallet face today
 

Darrmann39

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I don't know about your clock in particular, but many older clocks have a seconds bit that makes one rotation every 45 seconds but the clock keeps time just fine. Time your clock for one rotation of the minute hand and see what you get that way. Let us know.
I read a comment you made on a post
"Ooops. I missed that it was a platform. Forget what I said about the anchor :)
Platform escapements need to run with very good oscillation. A power problem in the train reduces that oscillation considerably, and that in turn causes it to run fast. That's where I would focus my attention. Be sure you don't put the platform in an ultrasonic cleaner."
Were you referring to a weak mainspring?.
 

Darrmann39

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Trying to help you at least comprehend how the watch works even if you find that the problem is beyond your capacity to repair.
Read this thread? https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/balanc...sible-repetitions-per-minute-and-hour.136935/

Earlier on I did mention appplyiing some oil to the pallet faces. Did you try that?
After lots of research on hairspring, platform balance wheels versus floating and a bunch of old threads and posts i finally got the idea behind hairsprings and mainsprings and the correlation of both with running slow or fast adding with being dirty.
Opened it back up and got my monocular out and sure enough the hairspring is touching looks like from oil maybe and dirty plus is popped up in one strand. Think most likely the problem.
 

Kevin W.

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Cant say you have not been cautioned. Its dirty and most likely has lots of wear, bushings needed. Start playing with a hair spring to straighten something, then snap, it breaks. Recomended take it to someone who has that experience.
 
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