1908 19j Vanguard from Europe

[Norbel]

Hi,

I’m new here and haven’t that much practical experience with pocket watch, even less with american ones. I bought recently a Waltham for the movement («wow, could make the Swiss look austere!») and found some information on it (after buying it...), leading to more question and thus to this community.

So here it is! A bit plain ø50ish mm 9k gold filled Dennison Star case (ref. 736425 24, so produced in 1924, isn’t it?) with an assorted well used Charnier chain:

Hunter case, opening to a (too?) flawless bold roman dial (it reflects the light but in a diffuse, granular way, hard enamel maybe?). Heat tempered blue hands, the minute probably replaced at one point (a bit too straight I think). The plexi looks also quite flat... I guess it should be glass and that I cannot find a replacement so easily...

If it had been all I wouldn’t have bought it but then it had this inside, with all the whistles and bells : “Waltham, Mass. Vanguard 19 jewels, Adjusted 5 positions” (ref. 17095818, cfr attached database snapshot). At that point I thought I could still dismantle, clean, oil and move it in another case.

I haven’t had it long enough but it looks like it’s keeping time quite good. Even more strange is the reserve. The first time it stops after 6 hours (“aïe!”) but it lasted 45h (“oi!”) for the second run (I checked twice, I was expecting 35h). Looks like someone has been changing pieces before me... May be good news.

So now, after some research (it could be a good caliber, that’s maybe a bit optimistic to start dismantling that one?), test (well, it’s running fine, why dismantle?), looking up on google (mmh, it looks exactly like that dial but on a ø35mm women watch (cfr attached file)), I’m wondering if it could be original (except glass and hands), produced in 99 pieces around 1908, cased around 1924 and serviced recently (did I say optimistic?)
What would be your advice for my next moves?

PS: sorry for the rusted english

 

[musicguy]

Welcome to the American Pocket Watch Forum of the NAWCC!


Rob

 

[MrRoundel]

Let me second musicguy's "welcome".

That's a very nice pocket watch you have there. And it's in a nice Dennison GF case. Very cool.

I'm not too sure about the dial being original to the movement. The dial looks like the style that Waltham used on their export models, like the "Traveler", where the movement looks like a standard "Vanguard" 19J model. I suppose it's possible that the dial is original. Regardless, it's a pretty dial. If Jerry T. checks in, he'll be able to tell you more about the originality of the match, or the lack thereof.

As far as your cleaning and oiling the movement, that all depends on your experience. It sounds like you're fairly new to servicing watches. True? If it is true, you may indeed want to start learning on watches that aren't so high grade. Until you get used to handling the tools, etc., it's too easy to damage the movement. And there are few things I hate worse than when I start with a running movement and end up with a dead one. And I've been doing this for a while. While the size and plate configuration is good to start on, it's just the grade that worries me a bit. You can pick up 15-17 jewel '99 and '08 models pretty inexpensively. Such grades would be better to start on, IMHO. And once you get one under your belt, you'll know better whether you're ready to attempt the higher grades.

Oh, and FYI, the USWCo at Waltham didn't make your watch. Your watch was made by the American Waltham Watch Co. They are different. It looks like the tag you used was wrong. Not a big deal, just for your information. Cheers.

 

[Norbel]

Thanks for you welcomes!

You’re right I’m not experienced. I trained on a cheaper watch but it looks like hands and eyes aren’t what they were anymore. I’ll wait a bit for that one.

Now, lying dial up, it’s running at +15s/24h. Could it be that “good” if it needed a service? I have a tendency to believe that a watch needs service when it starts to drift more than that or is short of reserve but again, no experience here...

PS: I tried to change the tag but couldn’t find a place to edit my post. Should I ask a moderator?

 

[roughbarked]

Thanks for you welcomes!

You’re right I’m not experienced. I trained on a cheaper watch but it looks like hands and eyes aren’t what they were anymore. I’ll wait a bit for that one.

Now, lying dial up, it’s running at +15s/24h. Could it be that “good” if it needed a service? I have a tendency to believe that a watch needs service when it starts to drift more than that or is short of reserve but again, no experience here...

PS: I tried to change the tag but couldn’t find a place to edit my post. Should I ask a moderator?

There's a report button on the bottom left of your post click it and tell the moderator why you reported the post and it will surely be fixed.

15 sec per day is fine for this watch. It may have been serviced recently and if you have magnifuction, you may be abe to see fresh oil in the jewels.

 

[musicguy]

I removed the tag.



Rob

 

[musicguy]

Waltham Pocket Watch: Serial Number 17095818 (Grade Vanguard) (pocketwatchdatabase.com)


Rob

 

[Norbel]

I couldn’t say if it the jewels were oiled or not... But looking that close it seems at least that center, third and escape wheels, pallets and balance staff have clear whitish jewels, not red. The last ones is even faceted.
Read about “diamonds” but is it really diamonds or rather some kind of artificial clear “rubis”/beryllium?

 

[musicguy]

is it really diamonds

yes



Rob

 

[Kent]

Hi Norbel:

Please add my welcome to those of the others.

To add to the good information posted by them:

Please excuse me if I repeat some of what you already know or have been posted by the others, it's easier for me this way. Checking the references listed in the Waltham Watches Encyclopedia article (and looking at your pictures), Waltham movement serial number 17,095,818 can be seen to be
a 16-size,
model 1908,
Vanguaed grade,
Adjusted to Temperature, Five Positions and Isochronism,
pendant-set,
hunting movement,
having 19 jewels,
and a Starwheel Patent Regulator.
The movement is fitted with a single-sunk, Roman dial. This dial may be a replacement as the Vanguard grade watches were usually fitted with double-sunk dials.

It was built in about 1910, give or take a year or so. This was a sparsely produced movement of which only 500 of this variation were made.

You can see a description of the 19-Jewel Vanguard grade, in the 1910 & 1911 ads shown below. The only difference between your watch and the railroad watches is that your watch is pendent-set vs. lever-set.

Your Watch Case is gold-filled and was made by the Dennison Watch Case Co.

Unless you know that it has been properly cleaned and oiled within the last few years, you should have the watch serviced before running it very much. The fact that it only keeps time within +/-15 seconds per day indicates that there is an unresolved problem. Even the most modest railroad watch had to keep time within +/-05 seconds per day and the Vanguard was one of the best. It may be helpful for you to read the Encyclopedia article on Watch Service and its related links, especially the one to the message board thread on the subject. The Encyclopedia article on Choosing a Pocket Watch Repair Person may be useful as well.

Unfortunately, many of the links in our Encyclopedia articles were disrupted when we changed to the current version of our Message Board and its been a long process getting them all reinstated. So, if you come across a broken link, please report it here.

Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

Good luck,

 

[Norbel]

Thanks for this thorough report (with advertisement and all!)!

A watchmaker will be contacted. I’m wondering if I should ask him to shift the mainspring in any case? I understood this model should have a 35h reserve but the watch is running consistently with 45h. Practically I’m fine with it but is there any risk for a too strong spring, ruining the mechanism?

I understand 500 pieces like quite rare. Would you say it’s not appropriate for everyday use? (nice excuse to find another one

 

[Kent]

... the watch is running consistently with 45h. Practically I’m fine with it but is there any risk for a too strong spring, ruining the mechanism?

I understand 500 pieces like quite rare. Would you say it’s not appropriate for everyday use?

I think that the spring is fine for your watch. High grade watches, such as your 19-Jewel Vanguard, would typically run for 42+ hours on a winding, see the chart in the Illinois ad below. What counts is the linear power output over the first 24 hours (or in the case of the 60-hour Illinois watches, the first 48 hours).



When to wind a watch has been the subject of much debate. Perhaps the best answer has been given by the British Clock and Watch Makers' Guild.

I have an aversion to the use of the word 'rare' in describing watches, except in the truly rare instances for which it applies. Page 101 of Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 33, R. Gilbert, T. Engle and C. Shugart, Tinderbox Press, Mount Pleasant, SC, 2013 (the most popular watch price guide on the market at the time, but now no longer in print) lists the below ratings of quantities. Although the assignment of 'Stars' elsewhere in the book may be open to debate (or in some instances, is demonstrably incorrect), the definitions used are as good as any in establishing the meanings of terms such as rare, scarce, etc.

Star Ratings

No. of Stars	Term	Quantity
*****	Rare	1-25
****	Scarce	100
***	Very Few	350
**	Sparse	1,000
*	Uncommon	2,500

There is nothing wrong with carrying your watch on a daily basis as long as its properly maintained and you take care to minimize case wear.