19 size not 18 size:

PapaLouies

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Apr 14, 2010
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P.S. Bartlett S/N 146681 1.8030".
P.S. Bartlett S/N 148311 1.8030".
Waltham Watch Co. S/N 640080 1.8040".
A.T. & Co. S/N 717631 1.8030".
Waltham Watch Co. 1029221 1.8050".
Elgin S/N 1262536 1.8030".
Rockford S/N 169376 1.8010".
D.H. & D. S/N 4868 1.8065".
E. Howard & Co. S/N 210541 1.8075".
E. Howard & Co. S/N 228989 1.8075".

Regards, PL
 

Bila

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Jan 22, 2010
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I have not checked any of the other makes beside the Rockford's but I think your micrometer/verniers might be out, also where are you measuring? The size with American make's are measured the step-down just under neath the dial plate, they are 18 size (actual measurement of 1.753" diameter taken in the correct place on the Rockford's) not 19 size's at all, they fit in 18 Size case's. These measurements were taken on movements a hundred serials or so either side of the Rockford number you have given, so I do not understand what you have measured or how, as I could not see the Watch Company making a 19 Size as you say, when clearly they have not:(
 
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Nathan Moore

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Most American companies used a 6/30" drop instead of the 5/30" for larger movements. As a result, “18 Size” American movements are actually 19 Size according to the Lancashire Gauge system.
 
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Greg Frauenhoff

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FWIW, here is a line from the 1923 Illinois Material Catalog (page 97):

"We call attention to the fact that our 18 size does not conform to this standard but corresponds to the 19 size given in the table."

I suppose that the issue, as Bila has noted above, is where one makes the measurement. But there is also the issue of marketing, that is, e. g., Waltham and Elgin both marketed 16s mvts in the early 1880s that required different cases because they had different dimensions. But as far as the trade was concerned they were both "16 size".
 

PapaLouies

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P.S. Bartlett S/N 146681 1.8030".
P.S. Bartlett S/N 148311 1.8030".
Waltham Watch Co. S/N 640080 1.8040".
A.T. & Co. S/N 717631 1.8030".
Waltham Watch Co. 1029221 1.8050".
Elgin S/N 1262536 1.8030".
Rockford S/N 169376 1.8010".
D.H. & D. S/N 4868 1.8065".
E. Howard & Co. S/N 210541 1.8075".
E. Howard & Co. S/N 228989 1.8075".

Regards, PL
Watch Size Chart[1].jpg
 
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Bila

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An interesting discussion, judging by the Factory periodicals produced by all the American Watch making factories of the day they apparently either didn't know what they were doing when taking measurements or their use of naming conventions regarding sizes. Or they just chose to measure the plates at a different position on the pillar plate to get to their nominated and advertised sizes.

So do we go along now and talk about these American Produced watches as 19 size and not 18 Size? With regard to measuring systems it is clearly evident that they (majority of American Watch Producers) used a different measuring position on the pillar plate, not on the outer edge of the pillar plate but below on the first step portion of the plate, to my knowledge this has been widely used and accepted since they starting producing and advertising their 18 size watches.
 

PapaLouies

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An interesting discussion, judging by the Factory periodicals produced by all the American Watch making factories of the day they apparently either didn't know what they were doing when taking measurements or their use of naming conventions regarding sizes. Or they just chose to measure the plates at a different position on the pillar plate to get to their nominated and advertised sizes.

So do we go along now and talk about these American Produced watches as 19 size and not 18 Size? With regard to measuring systems it is clearly evident that they (majority of American Watch Producers) used a different measuring position on the pillar plate, not on the outer edge of the pillar plate but below on the first step portion of the plate, to my knowledge this has been widely used and accepted since they starting producing and advertising their 18 size watches.
Waltham identification
PL
 

Bila

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Jan 22, 2010
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Have already read that Robert, and yes under the Lancashire Gauge, but show me anywhere in the Period advertising of any of the American Watch Companies where they advertised and sold their watches as a 19 Size? For American Watch makers it appears they had their own interpretation and they did not strictly adhere to the "Lancashire Gauge"system regarding overall dial plate measurement, but if you measure the first step down from the dial plate on 18 Size American Manufactured watches they then *mostly (*as I have not measured all types) conform to the advertised sizes from periodicals of the day and to the "Lancashire Gauge" system.
 
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