18th century Fusee

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by eculuke, Apr 10, 2015.

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  1. eculuke

    eculuke Registered User

    Aug 11, 2014
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    Love this latest acquisition....James Beesley Verge Fusee Pocket...I believe it to date to the 18th century...
    I believe the dial to be owners name....
    IMG_1347.JPG IMG_1348.JPG IMG_1349.JPG IMG_1351.JPG
     
  2. RON in PA

    RON in PA Registered User
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    Very nice. A sharp close-up of the hallmarks in the case back will enable us to date the watch.
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Luke,

    That's very handsome. It's almost certainly pre-1820, but as Ron says, hallmarks will tie it down to the year, as well as identifying the case maker. These named dials aren't at all common, and an interesting comment on the first owner's vanity! I think the hands have been replaced, but everything else looks original. A picture of the watch-paper(s) would be interesting as well. James Beesley would have been the retailer in all probability.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  4. eculuke

    eculuke Registered User

    Aug 11, 2014
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    Here are some photos of the outer case hallmarks and inner. Under the labeled papers was a ton of blank papers. I feel like every time I take out the papers the get a little more damaged. Do you guys store your papers in the case or separate? What are all those blank papers?





    IMG_1355.JPG IMG_1356.JPG IMG_1357.JPG IMG_1358.JPG IMG_1359.JPG IMG_1360.JPG IMG_1361.JPG IMG_1362.JPG
     
  5. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    The hallmarks are for Sterling silver assayed in London in 1777. The date letter "b" could alternatively be for 1817, but I think the maker's mark is "RP" for Richard Palmer of 2 Red Lion Street, London - the mark was registered in 1769 and again in 1778. I can find no RP in 1817.

    The arrow mark in your penultimate photo is intriguing - it looks very much like the WD (War Department) mark, although it may be upside down. I believe that arrow mark came into use in 1794 and had to be stamped on every significant item purchased by the British military. If that's what it is, then the watch may have been purchased by the War Department from the owner returned to him for use in service in the military.

    The dial "numerals" spell out the name James Tillyer, who would have been the original purchaser of the watch in 1777/8 perhaps. I have come across the will of Richard Blunt Tillyer, a farmer, of Harmondsworth, Middlesex (the will dated 1848) in which he leaves a considerable amount of property to his eldest son James. Richard also had a brother James. It would be interesting to discover if either of those had a military career.
     
  6. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

    Apr 10, 2008
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    The watchpapers could be interesting
    Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World lists:-
    Upjohn James London (New Brentford) 1817-24 watch
    Grimshaw James London 1832-44
    I cannot read the other two
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Luke,

    I think the blank papers are just there as padding, to stop the inner case rattling about in the outer. As the named papers are part of the history of the watch, especially the manuscript text on the backs detailing repair dates, I'd put them back in the outer case; far less chance of them becoming separated.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Blank paper padding does work
    I use it in an 1827 Mann pair case verge
     
  9. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Gorgeous watch!!! I'm with Les and Graham, I keep my watch papers in the outer case. Keith
     
  10. eculuke

    eculuke Registered User

    Aug 11, 2014
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    I really am over the moon with this watch....the price was a steal......I always wanted to own a Pocket watch from the 1700s...I purchased a couple prior to this which had been advertised as 18th century and turned out to be early 1800s. I am hoping this one is the 1700 and not the 1817. Next on the list is 18th century with painted enamel dial! Any more info would be appreciated. If I need closer pictures let me know?
     
  11. eculuke

    eculuke Registered User

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    Since I have ancestry.com world edition I did a search for James Tillyer. I found one born in 1752 which would have made him late 20s when this watch was hallmarked (if its 18th century). Im digging more into this. Untitledrerere.jpg
     
  12. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    It looks promising
    Middlesex was on the edge, now part, of London
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Luke,

    I think you can be reasonably confident that the date is indeed 1777; Martin's information on the case maker is convincing, and that long pendant supports it. We're very lucky to have such a rigorously enforced and detailed hallmarking system here in the UK. Some pictures of the edge of the movement would be interesting, I'd guess at square pillars.

    If you're looking for decorated dials, they can be a minefield, since there are quite a few original dials which have been "tarted up" with modern decals or much later painted additions.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  14. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
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    I must get myself a nice, old fusee. Only that I have no idea which of them are good, which are worse, or even counterfeit... It's difficult to buy watches you know so little about... This one looks awesome, congratulations!
     
  15. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Be careful they can cost a fortune to get fixed if anything goes wrong
     
  16. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    I know :) An 'ordinary' watch can be costly, and a watch like that... it's scary to even imagine ;)
     
  17. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Romilly I understand, was gifted at Enamel dial painting, (I think). Relates to your bucket list wish, eculuke. Good luck, Keith.
     

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