18th century English verge, balance bridge or balance cock?

[novicetimekeeper]

My limited understanding is that the balance cock is an English style, the balance bridge a Continental Europe style.

Sometimes you see them with English hallmarks on the cases, does that suggest they are made in England with a Continental style, or made on the Continent and cased in England?

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

The English trade included quite a number of immigrants from various European countries, many of whom brought their national styles with them, so for example there are perfectly legitimate London signed watches with balance bridges, some which wind through the dial, and some with dials bearing arcaded chapter rings. On the other hand there are also watches made in the Netherlands which purport to be English (vulgarly known as "Dutch Fakes") . . .

Regards,

Graham

 

[novicetimekeeper]

That is what I feared, how do we tell the difference? (Mind you I actually generally prefer balance cocks to balance bridges in appearance)

Those arcaded dials were a feature of English longcase for a period, I never liked them there but I quite like them on watches.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

That is what I feared, how do we tell the difference? ...

You look at as many watches as you can, preferably dismantled, and absorb all the other clues to age and origin!

Regards,

Graham

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I'm looking, I'm looking. (though dismantled is a tall order, but I have been collecting movements to investigate.)

 

[eri231]

the "dutch fake" were made by Ebauches of Japy of France Beaucourt, characteristic It was the bridge balance.
regards enrico

 

[John Pavlik]

You can also determine where it was made by taking a side view look at how the crown wheel is adjusted.. Screw type adjustment, most likely European,
friction fit, most likely English..

 

[novicetimekeeper]

have you got a picture that would show what to look at?

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

This is what an English escape wheel back pivot looks like:



The views above are of the underside of the top plate, and when assembled, the "wedge" sits just above the contrate wheel. Adjustments are by moving the plug which is a friction fit in the block. A French or Swiss one has several screws to adjust the wheel in place of the "wedge".

Regards,

Graham

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I keep seeing that bit and wondering what it was for! Thank you.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

OK, I'm now looking at watches I wasn't sure about again with new info. A Samson with date complication. Proper hallmarked case, balance cock not bridge, , arcaded porcelain dial. I know Samson is one of the names that has been used for contintal watches, but this one seemed pretty true and I felt it all suggested English, it even has a wedge! (way out of my current price bracket, I was just looking.)

I'm going back to bridge ones I've seen but people don't seem to take pics of those that help, wonder why?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

oops, that one has a bridge, but it does appear to have the wedge too. So arcaded dial, name of Samson, English hallmarks, wedge not screw adjustment, balance bridge. I'm still thinking wrong, but perhaps it isn't.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

Some very distinguished English makers used a balance bridge; Josiah Emery springs to mind.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Pavlik]

Nick, it would be beneficial if you could also post photos of said watch.. The old "a picture is worth a thousand words" applies here..

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Can't do that as it is currently for sale and they are not my pictures. Once it is sold I could link to the listing.

I'm not seeking advice on something I might buy though, I'm really interested to learn. Fakes aren't something I've heard to learn about in longcase clocks, this is a whole new area to me. It's quite fun too as the fakes are also 18th century watches.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

How about this one, that doesn't break the rules I think as it is a completed listing. I really liked this one and did consider buying it. I liked the way the name had been put on that scroll, the single piece case bolt and spring with the carving. I was put off by the bridge though the bridge itself has that lace edging that is right for the date on the case and was used on balance cocks at the time. It appears to have the wedge showing just above the contrate wheel, it has English hall marks. There was a John Drills working in London in the second half of the 18th Century according to Baillies.

As well as the bridge it also has an arcaded dial and the fancy gilt hands that you often see on watches in the Nederlands.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1761-Earl...bOoZrY3T1QCeAF3%2BMdc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

This is certainly in the "Dutch manner", but there is a problem with the balance bridge, which has been broken and partially repaired by soldering at some point. One of the lace edge decorations is missing.

The case is by William Thomas.

Regards,

Graham

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Those lace edge decorations seem a bit prone to damage, you often see them with bits missing. I hadn't noticed the repair, but I had decided it wasn't for me on several counts.

I was wondering about the pros and cons of the two designs. In appearance I prefer the balance cock to the balance bridge but isn't the bridge more robust, or is the more floating type style of the balance cock somehow better?

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

... I was wondering about the pros and cons of the two designs. In appearance I prefer the balance cock to the balance bridge but isn't the bridge more robust, or is the more floating type style of the balance cock somehow better?

I think a lot of it is down to established practice and tradition, (bags of that in the English trade!). The bridge should provide a more rigid mechanical solution, but the cock allows better sight of what's going on underneath it. Perhaps a little "spring" in the cock provides a very small degree of resilience in case of shock?

Regards,

Graham

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I did wonder if that was an advantage with the balance cock, also I imagine that the precision required with two screwholes and the shaping of the bridge was more restrictive than the single fixing and cantilever. After all that system didn't seem to stop there but is also in many of the much later Swiss and American movements you see pictured on these boards.

I've been studying pics and spotting the wedges, I've also looked up some continental ones to see the screw adjustment.

I notice that vendor is selling a lot of Dutch silver so I think there could well be a Dutch influence to his stock.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

...also I imagine that the precision required with two screwholes and the shaping of the bridge was more restrictive than the single fixing and cantilever...

Yes, but the single fixing of the balance cock is supplemented by two or three steady pins underneath the foot.

Regards,

Graham