18s Waltham Vanguard 17j

John Cote

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I bought this 18s, 17j Vanguard yesterday. It seems to be from the second run of VG hunters and from a group which contained a mix of 17 and 21 jewel movements. The strange thing that attracted me was that it had no jewel marking. I have one from the same run in my collection marked 17 jewels. Are there others out there with no jewel count marking? I don't remember seeing one but....

_JDC9678_Van-17Mvt-Crop_WEB.jpg
 
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Greg Frauenhoff

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John,

Are you asking about only the second run mvts being umarked. The first run 17j Vanguards that I've seen are all unmarked as to jewel count.

Greg
 

John Cote

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John,

Are you asking about only the second run mvts being umarked. The first run 17j Vanguards that I've seen are all unmarked as to jewel count.

Greg
I should have looked at my pix from the first run. You are correct as usual Greg. My first run examples are all un-marked as to jewel count.

Thanks
 

Kent

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Hi John:

Nice watch. Ed and I first saw it in an Ashland catalog in April 1991. At that time, it was in a gold-filled, engraved box-hinge case.

Ed Ueberall and I have the following serial numbers listed in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches. Unfortunately, we didn't note the marking of jewels until lately. What's the other watch from your collection that has the jewel marking?

Jwl - Serial Number - Notes
17 - 7,001,006 -
17 - 7,001,113 -
17 - 7,001,114 - NOT Marked "17J" - Note just added
17 - 7,001,125 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
21 - 7,001,269 -
21 - 7,001,278 -
17 - 7,001,281 -
17 - 7,001,473 -
21 - 7,001,588 -
21 - 7,001,588 - "Non-Magnetic"
21 - 7,001,640 -
21 - 7,001,657 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,666 -
21 - 7,001,666 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,852 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,904 -


As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.
 

John Cote

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Kent, the number ends in 174 and not 114. It is in a GF fancy case but not box hinge. It has the typical two line script DS dial. My others are already in your list, (this list and the lists from the first runs).
 

34Ford5W

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Hi John:

Nice watch. Ed and I first saw it in an Ashland catalog in April 1991. At that time, it was in a gold-filled, engraved box-hinge case.

Ed Ueberall and I have the following serial numbers listed in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches. Unfortunately, we didn't note the marking of jewels until lately. What's the other watch from your collection that has the jewel marking?

Jwl - Serial Number - Notes
17 - 7,001,006 -
17 - 7,001,113 -
17 - 7,001,114 - NOT Marked "17J" - Note just added
17 - 7,001,125 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
21 - 7,001,269 -
21 - 7,001,278 -
17 - 7,001,281 -
17 - 7,001,473 -
21 - 7,001,588 -
21 - 7,001,588 - "Non-Magnetic"
21 - 7,001,640 -
21 - 7,001,657 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,666 -
21 - 7,001,666 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,852 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,904 -


As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.
Kent please add if not already.
17J Vanguard OF serial # 6027282
17J Vanguard OF serial # 6027577
17J Vanguard HC serial # 7001303
17J Vanguard HC serial #7001352
 

Kent

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John:
Oops - thanks fir the correction (I hate making silly mistakes like that - that's why I've started adding the disclaimer).

34Ford5W:
Thanks for reporting the watches


Here's the corrected list (and by the way: I've corrected today's data base entry):

Jwl - Serial Number - Notes
17 - 7,001,006 -
17 - 7,001,113 -
17 - 7,001,114 -
17 - 7,001,125 -
17 - 7,001,174 - NOT Marked "17J" - Just added
17 - 7,001,231 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
21 - 7,001,269 -
21 - 7,001,278 -
17 - 7,001,281 -
17 - 7,001,303 - Just added
17 - 7,001,352 - Just added
17 - 7,001,473 -
21 - 7,001,588 -
21 - 7,001,588 - "Non-Magnetic"
21 - 7,001,640 -
21 - 7,001,657 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,666 -
21 - 7,001,666 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,852 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,904 -


As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.
 
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Kent

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34Ford5W:

Thanks again for reporting the watches. Is the jewel count marked on any of them?
 

John Cote

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John:
Oops - thanks fir the correction (I hate making silly mistakes like that - that's why I've started adding the disclaimer).
You and Ed never need to apologize for the fantastic work you have done for the NAWCC and the watch collecting community in general.
 

Jerry Treiman

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The strange thing that attracted me was that it had no jewel marking. I have one from the same run in my collection marked 17 jewels.
A look at the handwritten ledger shows that this large block of 2000 movements was finished over a five year period (Nov.1894 to Jan.1900) and I believe that is the key to the differences between movements in the same "run". Finish specifications, including marking the jewel count, changed with time so some of the earlier-finished movements (like the preceding run) did not have the jewel count marked and so this run is mixed in that respect. I think this is the same pattern we see in the Non-Magnetic grade 45 movements discussed in this other thread - https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/an-unusual-waltham-riverside.175388/ where finish details apparently changed over the four years that that block of movements was finished (1896 to 1900).
 

34Ford5W

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John:
Oops - thanks fir the correction (I hate making silly mistakes like that - that's why I've started adding the disclaimer).

34Ford5W:
Thanks for reporting the watches


Here's the corrected list (and by the way: I've corrected today's data base entry):

Jwl - Serial Number - Notes
17 - 7,001,006 -
17 - 7,001,113 -
17 - 7,001,114 -
17 - 7,001,125 -
17 - 7,001,174 - NOT Marked "17J" - Just added
17 - 7,001,231 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
21 - 7,001,269 -
21 - 7,001,278 -
17 - 7,001,281 -
17 - 7,001,303 - Just added
17 - 7,001,352 - Just added
17 - 7,001,473 -
21 - 7,001,588 -
21 - 7,001,588 - "Non-Magnetic"
21 - 7,001,640 -
21 - 7,001,657 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,666 -
21 - 7,001,666 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,852 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,904 -


As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.
Kent: Please add 21 Ruby jewels Vanguard HC serial# 7001719
 

Kent

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Thanks!
 

grtnev

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Hi John:

Nice watch. Ed and I first saw it in an Ashland catalog in April 1991. At that time, it was in a gold-filled, engraved box-hinge case.

Ed Ueberall and I have the following serial numbers listed in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches. Unfortunately, we didn't note the marking of jewels until lately. What's the other watch from your collection that has the jewel marking?

Jwl - Serial Number - Notes
17 - 7,001,006 -
17 - 7,001,113 -
17 - 7,001,114 - NOT Marked "17J" - Note just added
17 - 7,001,125 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
17 - 7,001,231 -
21 - 7,001,269 -
21 - 7,001,278 -
17 - 7,001,281 -
17 - 7,001,473 -
21 - 7,001,588 -
21 - 7,001,588 - "Non-Magnetic"
21 - 7,001,640 -
21 - 7,001,657 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,666 -
21 - 7,001,666 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,852 - "21 Ruby Jewels"
21 - 7,001,904 -


As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.
Kent/Ed,

Another watch for your list: s/n 7001434, 21j, Vanguard, hunting case sold on eBay a few days ago:


Richard
 

John Cote

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Kent/Ed,

Another watch for your list: s/n 7001434, 21j, Vanguard, hunting case sold on eBay a few days ago:


Richard
I am tempted to say that this watch had the wrong dial. People have told me about harvesting dials from this second run to put on first run examples...but who knows?
 

Kent

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Thanks Richard!
 

grtnev

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I am tempted to say that this watch had the wrong dial. People have told me about harvesting dials from this second run to put on first run examples...but who knows?
John,

I had similar thoughts as well re: the dial.

Richard
 

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