18c? 8day moon roller, dial Maker HENDREN?

JoePEI

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May 18, 2022
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Hi and thanks for any help.
Looking to identify if possible location of maker, material, style,age, any info at all, only the dial face bracket is labelled. HENDPEN. Any info about this dial maker?
Seems functional so far. Not shure yet about the moon phase or calendar. Actualy I'm not even shure if that is a calendar. It is numbered increasing by 3.. 15,18,21,24 etc. Thanks for your help IMG_20220517_112132.jpg IMG_20220518_075357.jpg IMG_20220518_075405.jpg



IMG_20220518_145012.jpg
 
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jmclaugh

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The curved aperture below the hands is for a calendar, The style of the dial suggests a date of around 1800-30. Can't find any reference to Hendpen in my sources.
 

JTD

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the dial face bracket is labelled. HENDPEN. Any info about this dial maker?
Could you post a clearer photo of this name, preferably with the dial removed?

I have never heard or read of the name Hendpen in connection with clocks (or anything else) and I am wondering if part of name is obscured in the photo.

JTD
 

JoePEI

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Hi, thanks for the help.
Unfortunately I do not know how to remove the dial face. It is currently leveled and anchored to the wall, so this is the best photo at the moment.
I also didn't find anything for this name that's why I though it would be of special interest. HENDPEN , actually I do find as a family name used at least twice in USA. But otherwise this name seems unheard of. I have inspected it very closely from many angles , I am very certain it is HENDPEN. Not Hendren or anything else . Unless there was an original misspelling of the name. Like a typo.

I found this article doing research


This made me think my clock could be 18c,. The case looks like stuff I see called Georgian. The basic plain case also made me think older. Was it painted,? Or japaned (lacquered, Wich turned black).
Or even more hopefully it would be awesome if the case was made locally. By a local or settler.

I have since adjusted the calendar date, moon phase , and hour ringing to all be on time. So I can confirm it all works

The measurements of the this dial face in my research started in 1770? Is it possible?

The moon phase has two moons. A sailing ship And a landscape.
I notice my moon phase has 31 days. And my dial in in digits not numerals. Perhaps the font of digits Is typical of a certain location or the dial maker...
 

JoePEI

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I see that the hour and minute hand are the style used for the very first painted dial clocks 1780-1820,. I see the painted face is plain. But I realize the Arabic numerals were used after the Roman. I can see why 1800 -30 is suggested .

Any thoughts on the case material? Like what kind of wood?
 

JoePEI

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Thanks. I am thinking mahogany also.
Okay , I must also apologize to everyone who's wasted time. I believe I must correct myself. I looked again at the name and this time I am quite certain it is HENDREN. With an R. Not a P , also
I notice on the bottom of the support bracket is another word.... Obscured by the shelf that the mechanics sit on.... The location.. so close... But I can not read it.
 

zedric

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These clocks would normally be marked with the maker/retailer's name on the dial. The dial on this clock appears to be re-painted, so any name has probably been obliterated. Where are you seeing a name? If the name is scratched or hand-written, it may be a repairer's name rather than the maker..
 

JoePEI

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Hi, as I mentioned it is on the iron support bracket for the dial face. Embossed. also is probably a location on the bottom of same bracket.. I saw a similar signed bracket. Wich encouraged me to look again and realize I have a location name marked also ... I'd share the example of the part I am talking about but the photo I saw earlier eludes me. I did try to photo the part with the name. In my last picture.

Wish my phone could take better photos. You can see the tiny crazing in paint and parts of deterioration. I doubt it was repainted.
 

zedric

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OK, I can see it now...

That bracket is called a false plate, and the name embossed on these false plates are generally the makers of the false plates, not the clock maker, who would have bought this component, along with the dial, from a supplier. That said, none of the books I have looked in mention Handren as a false plate maker. As an example by another maker, here is one in the British Museum collection by Finnemore

 

zedric

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I may be wrong about the dial being repainted, and if it isn't, then using a blacklight on the dial may show where the name of the maker/retailer would have been.

But the reasons I think the dial is repainted (and some of these may simply be the poor photo quality) are:
1/ the cheeks around the moon phase are blank. These are almost always painted, most often with a half globe on each. The repainter may not have had the skill to do this
2/ the numbers are in a very unusual orientation. The 4 would usually be the other way round..
3/ there is no name on the dial.
4/ the moon phase is numbered to 30, not 29

1/ and 3/ could be because someone washed the dial, and removed ink done over the original paint, but I don't think many dial painters would put the 4 on like that - not to say it didn't happen, but taking all of these items together does suggest it has been repainted, which may have happened a long time ago, and was probably done by someone unfamiliar with usual dial conventions.
 
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JoePEI

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I actualy saw many examples of this. With no name of dial painter or purchaser, many with that exact odd placement of the numbers . Not just the 4 but the whole placement of all the dial numbering. Blank cheecks also. I will try to get some of the photos I saw to share. I read that the first painted dials were more plain.
A better photo of mine. Would leave no doubt...

I also read that finding the "clockmaker" of this mechanics is unlikely. As these old ones were not usualy marked.
I thought that the name on the dial support bracket was the name of the dial maker/painter.

I didn't realize that the dial bracket had its own maker...

The case style appears Scottish. Aswell as the name... Hendren. Hendron. Etc..
Scottish settle in pei circa 1800...
 

JoePEI

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No need for black light. The name of maker retailer was never painted on the front of this one.. pretty darn shure
 

JoePEI

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Here is just a few examples, concerning the "4". I found a website before with a whole bunch of these painted face dials . I will try to find it again..

images.jpeg 1850-s-white-painted-face-8-day-grandfather-clock-in-oak-case_0.jpg 78159f660db150ae651effe63c4ac9ad.jpg day-american-antique-grandfather_1_ac3f3da0510880a55c13a22612e58bd6.jpg mtd-2.jpg
 

JoePEI

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Jeez, it's late,. I rushed in finding those photos,. Just looked again and the 4 is different... I'll see tomorow if I can track down some with a 4 like mine...
 

zedric

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When looking, see if you can find clocks that have all of the numbers in the same orientation as yours.....

Normally, if the 4 is in the same orientation as yours, the 5-8 are also in that orientation, so the 6 is completely upside down, while if the 5-8 are in the orientation yours is, then the 4 is flipped as well, as seen in the photos you posted above..
 

jmclaugh

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I thought that the name on the dial support bracket was the name of the dial maker/painter.

I didn't realize that the dial bracket had its own maker...
The topic of falseplates is a bit like the old saying 'the chicken or the egg'. Loomes in his book White Dial Clocks takes the view that generally dials with a falseplate were supplied with it fitted by dialmakers. Others put forward the view they were supplied fitted to a movement and not the dial. It is also the case that dials have been seen with the name of one dialmaker on them fitted with a falseplate with a different maker's name on it. It is quite a detailed discussion but probably the key fact is factory made movements weren't readily available until around 1830 and by 1840 falseplates had typically fallen out of use and there would be no reason to use them if the dial and movement were supplied together.

The hour numbering pattern on the dial of this clock is called tumbling as they reverse direction, typically this is from 4 to 8 as opposed to 5 on this dial. Arabic numbered dials also exist with the numbers shown horizontally so there is no need to reverse them to make them easier to read.

Who Hendren was remains a mystery.
 

JoePEI

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May 18, 2022
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The topic of falseplates is a bit like the old saying 'the chicken or the egg'. Loomes in his book White Dial Clocks takes the view that generally dials with a falseplate were supplied with it fitted by dialmakers. Others put forward the view they were supplied fitted to a movement and not the dial. It is also the case that dials have been seen with the name of one dialmaker on them fitted with a falseplate with a different maker's name on it. It is quite a detailed discussion but probably the key fact is factory made movements weren't readily available until around 1830 and by 1840 falseplates had typically fallen out of use and there would be no reason to use them if the dial and movement were supplied together.

The hour numbering pattern on the dial of this clock is called tumbling as they reverse direction, typically this is from 4 to 8 as opposed to 5 on this dial. Arabic numbered dials also exist with the numbers shown horizontally so there is no need to reverse them to make them easier to read.

Who Hendren was remains a mystery.
 

JoePEI

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May 18, 2022
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Sorry I didn't mean to repost your whole reply.. and thank you very much. That is very interesting. Is there a way to determine if my mechanics were prior to factory production? Also I think I understood the false plate could possibly have been attached by the clockmaker, so that name possibly could be the clock movement maker?
As for the number 4. I think it is so cool now that I think about it . To have "1234" a special number like 12:34 .... To have it out of ordinary on my clock. By mistake even. It's a cool thing I think.
Also I took a photo with a tube uv florescent light. If I get a UV flashlight I'll try again. I couldn't see anything.

IMG_20220520_084555.jpg
 

JoePEI

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This on has plain cheeks, no signature, and floral border is similar. This one supposedly from Pennsylvania USA.
No luck yet finding one with a similar 4

s-l400.jpg
 

jmclaugh

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Is there a way to determine if my mechanics were prior to factory production? Also I think I understood the false plate could possibly have been attached by the clockmaker, so that name possibly could be the clock movement maker?
Q1. Not that I know of. Q2. While a clockmaker using a falseplate would have attached it to his movement imo he'd be much more likely to have put his name on the dial or the movement than bother to stamp it on a falseplate.
 
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