1894 Junghans Repair?

Joe Gargery

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Gentlemen,
I am an amateur looking for some guidance, so please forgive my lack of knowledge if I make an error in proper clock terminology.
I have a non-working Junghans wall clock that I am anxious to get back in working condition.
I have done much research and learned that my Junghans is a model 2793 Monte Rosa, as shown in the 1894 catalog.

20220610_181951.jpg 20220122_155438.jpg

I understand from an earlier post that my works has a broken suspension spring. Can anyone here recommend a supplier for me to source a new one?

20220201_221625.jpg

Also, this is the pendulum that came with the clock but I'm not sure if it's original to it. It resembles the pendulum in the catalog photo but I cannot see a way for it to attach. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming that I will need to replace the broken suspension spring before the pendulum will attach?

20220610_173807.jpg

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I appreciate any and all input.
Best, Joe
 

tracerjack

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By the hook on the pendulum and what is left of your suspension spring, my guess is some thing like this; #102 Suspension Spring & Leader Assembly 3-3/8" Long
This is a combination suspension spring and leader. You didn’t mention if you have the leader. If you do, that would indicate what type of suspension spring you would need, which may be different than what I have posted. I have only a little experience with movements as old as yours. My experience is mainly with movements from 1910 to 1930. I hope you will wait for others to post before doing anything.
 

Joe Gargery

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Thank you for the quick response tracerjack. I'm afraid I don't know what a leader is, but I'm sure I do not have one. All I have is what is left of the suspension spring as shown in my picture.
 
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RJSoftware

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First off, what a beauty..!

Try your hardest to NOT modify anything. Take your time. The clock survived all this time what looks like virgin 100% original condition. When you alter you cant go back. The pendulum is original. All that you appear to be missing is a tiny pin that the hook of bob would rest upon.

What I would do take the thin metal strip (suspension spring ) off, set on a wood block, use a stout sewing needle and puncture a new hole to insert a new cross pin for the pendulum 's hook grab upon. Then I'd cut a portion of that needle for a resting pin.

But before I do that, Take a thin card, someone 's business card, cut a small rectangle of it, large enough to fold over the spring where you intend to punch the hole. Set the bottom end of spring in the fold. The width should be wider. Saturate the card portion with super glue then press together. Now you have a suspension block. The thin card and thin spring combined thickness should still fit between the crack of the hook's claws. Puncture the hole as described and super glue resting pin into block.

Since the old suspension bottom block busted, the suspension spring will be short, but looks like you got enough rating adjustment at bottom with threaded rod to lower bob.

You don't have to do anything fancy yet. This kind of rigging is for the purpose of getting the clock running.

From there take your time to examine how she runs, if at all. My bet she will do fine. Report back..!
 

Mike Phelan

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What I would do take the thin metal strip (suspension spring ) off, set on a wood block, use a stout sewing needle and puncture a new hole to insert a new cross pin for the pendulum 's hook grab upon. Then I'd cut a portion of that needle for a resting pin.
You'll need to anneal the needle before you can cut it - heat it put till it's bright red then allow it to cool VERY slowly.
 

tracerjack

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I forgot about those pendulums where there is no leader. I only have one clock with that set up, but it has a split crutch foot, so that you simply push the pendulum rod into the foot. With that closed loop foot on this crutch, wouldn’t you have to remove the hook on the pendulum to get the rod through? If so, it would be a very cumbersome procedure on a wall clock. Please understand that I am not doubting the set up, I would simply like to increase my education on these older clock movements. As for the suspension spring, would it be similar to the French type, shaped like this, although longer; #33 Suspension Spring
The plan to put a cross pin in the suspension spring that is already in the movement is an excellent one.
 
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tracerjack

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I’m also a little bit confused on the pendulum. In the OP’s fourth photo, the pendulum has three very short rods with the long center one that could fit in the crutch loop. In the fifth photo, I see the shadow of three long rods with a very short length on the center rod from bar to hook that would not fit in the crutch loop and would need a leader. Were the outer rods behind the bob in the fourth photo and not pulled up into their proper place?
 

Willie X

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The rod assemblies are usually capable of locking on the rod, just above the pendulum. If there is no locking screw, it will just rest on the bob and move up and down with the bob. Willie X
 

Joe Gargery

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Much good info gentlemen, thank you.
I will be sure not to modify anything. I too believe originality is essential.
I think my basic starting point should be in finding a new, correct sized suspension spring but I'm not certain how to accomplish that.
As you can see in this picture (blue arrow) there is only a portion left of the original spring. Should I measure the distance between the upper anchor point that holds the spring in place and the lower "hoop" (terminology?) marked by the orange arrow? Also, how far below this hoop piece should the suspension spring extend?

20220201_231651.jpg
 

tracerjack

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What you are going to need depends on the configuration of your pendulum, which I am still not sure exactly how it is supposed to be. In one photo you have a long center rod exposed, in the next, the top bar is right next to the hook. The two photos don’t match. I’ve never seen the rods positioned as they are in photo #4. Most are arranged like the photo with the shadow of the rods, #5, which would also match the pendulum in the illustration. But either way, I still don’t see how the pendulum hook, as wide as it is, can be put through the crutch foot loop, so that indicates to me some type of leader is needed. I think you will need to get a consensus of what, exactly, you need before you will know what to measure.
 

Joe Gargery

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Perhaps this will help, tracerjack. The horizontal upper brass bar that hold the two outer brass poles, slides in and out of the pendulum.

20220611_163029.jpg 20220611_163035.jpg 20220611_163040.jpg
 

Willie X

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The upper assembly should be locked on the center rod, close to what the top photo looks like but probably with the bob a bit lower. The rating nut is on upside down. Willie X
 
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Joe Gargery

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Willie,
There seems to be no mechanism in place to prevent the outer brass rods from sliding up and down. The only set screw is the one pictured that locks the lower horizontal brass bar to the center steel rod. Is there something wrong with this pendulum or could it be missing a piece?

20220611_182721.jpg 20220611_182730.jpg
 

Willie X

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Look closely for stake marks. The outer rods may have been staked to the crosspiece with the set screw, or the top cross piece could have been staked to the center rod. Don't make anything permanent until you rate it to time. On most, the lower cross piece will be set just above the bob, about 1/8". It usually takes several tries to get this all exactly right.
Willie X
 
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tracerjack

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Thank you for the addition pendulum photos. As Williex posts, the upper bar should be up by the hook. The fact that the upper bar has no means to keeps it in place makes me think it was meant to slide up or down as a unit with the bob. Also, the bob has “holes” to accommodate the rods, indicating the two were meant to function together. So, either something is missing inside the bob to keep the rods up, or as Williex states some staking “crimping” has worn away allowing the rods to slip down. However, that still leaves us with a hook that does not appear able to pass through the crutch foot loop. If you could verify whether it can or can’t, that will narrow down what you will need for your suspension unit. You might also look to see if the pendulum length is stamped on the back plate of the movement. That measurement, while not precise, will give you a ballpark idea where the pendulum needs to be so you can then calculate how long the suspension unit needs to be.
 
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Joe Gargery

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OK, I've gone over the pendulum with a very good magnifier and cannot find any evidence of staking. When I remove the rating nut the pieces slide apart completely.
tracerjack, the hook definitely will not fit through the crutch foot loop. There is no stamp on the back plate to indicate pendulum length.

20220612_140726.jpg

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Willie X

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A pendulum like that would normally hang on a leader. The bottom of the leader would be flat (the width of the vertical slot in the hook) with a tiny cross pin. Willie X
 

Joe Gargery

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That makes sense Willie, thanks.
Now, where might I find a leader and spring like that?
 

eemoore

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Thank you for the quick response tracerjack. I'm afraid I don't know what a leader is, but I'm sure I do not have one. All I have is what is left of the suspension spring as shown in my picture.
OK, I've gone over the pendulum with a very good magnifier and cannot find any evidence of staking. When I remove the rating nut the pieces slide apart completely.
tracerjack, the hook definitely will not fit through the crutch foot loop. There is no stamp on the back plate to indicate pendulum length.

View attachment 712805

View attachment 712806
For what it's worth , I think you need something like in the picture I posted. The metal piece that goes from the spring down to the pendulum is the leader. The pendulum bob hooks on the leader , in your case, the hook, fits over the pin in the bottom of the leader. In response#2 above,tracerjack show a spring attached to a leader and a pin at the end ( I think). when you attache the pendulum to the leader the rods will slide up and down as you adjust the rate screw. My 1912 Junhans (picture) is different in that the leader attaches to the spring with a hook, but I think you could use a spring/leader as shown in #2. Hope this is useful. others may want to agree or disagree. Good luck.

IMG_2683.jpeg
 
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Willie X

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A simple American style suspension rod will work. You would need to figure out how long and flatten the bottom end. Then cross drill the flattened part for a pin. You will need a drill around #60 and a tight fitting pin. Willie X
 
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tracerjack

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This photo clearly shows that there is something not working properly with the decorative rods on your pendulum. There would be no reason that I can think of for the upper bar to completely collapse onto the lower bar. But for now, it is not important. The rods and bars are only decorative. Later, once you have rating nut and bob where they need to be for time keeping, you could always place a small piece of tape around the center rod to keep the upper bar in place so that the rods look appropriate. The tape would be completely reversible.
DF865FC1-1AAC-496D-9CF2-15A63413A3AC.png
An American style rod reshaped as WillieX suggested will work. If you prefer to buy, I would get the style of the suspension/leader combo in post #2. Measure from where the cross pin is in the post that is still holding the old suspension spring to about a half inch below the crutch foot. You most likely will not find an exact match. Choose one that is close enough. If nothing comes close, you’ll have to make one as WillieX suggests.
 
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tracerjack

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From teaclock’s photos, WillieX’s suggestion is the best option. Use an American style suspension rod, cut it to correct length, flatten the end, drill and fit a cross pin.
 

RJSoftware

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The next step, which will help you determine if you need a leader or just hang rod to suspension. You should make a temporary pendulum. What I do is screw movement to wood panel and hang on wall. The idea being to have good access to movement while you construct & test pendulum length.

I would first test directly hooking to suspension. With hands on the clock then you can test how accurate time keeping is. If it keeps good time then the pendulum length is correct.

If it's way to fast then probably it required the additional leader. On your test pendulum you will want to use the original bob. But uderstand, this does not mean bobs of different size & weight are significant. It's more to do with the pendulum center of mass. The combined weight of rod & bob etc. will have a center of mass. That distance from the suspension hanging point is specific. Above will be too fast. Below too slow.

Looking at the catalog suggest to me no leader as the bob is near center of lower glass view. But don't be surprised if slight lower. Artistic expectations don't always match reality.

The decorative pendulum rod pieces I would use super glue, tiny drops. Just don't glue anything intended to slide. The glue is just a practical way to stake without damaging or make due for any missing set screws. Keep in mind that the rating nut at bottom job is to slide bob up or down the center pendulum rod to adjust center of mass. So the other rods probably glue to the Bob. They are stationary to the Bob. They are decorative.The

Why a test pendulum works is because they are generally same, even though weight not same. It's the clock's escapement that is specific and expect specific distance. The center of mass can be seen simplified as a balancing point along the axis of the pendulum rod. In general as long as proportion is not too wildly different, test pendulum can give expected length when adjust for time.
 
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Joe Gargery

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RJ, thank you for that in depth report. I will follow your suggestions and reply back here.
tracerjack, I will secure the outer rods to the bob with a little super glue.
Willie, thank you again for the excellent info.
TEACLOCKS, thank you for posting the pictures. That really helps.
 

Willie X

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None of the rods would be secured to the pendulum.

The rods are free and act as a guide to hold the pendulum parallel with the movement plates as the rating nut moves the pendulum bob up and down.

You could slightly glue the top horizontal bar to the center rod (about 1/2" down from the hook) for starters.

Willie X
 
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Joe Gargery

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OK, I have added a tiny dab of clear silicone to the cross bar on my pendulum to fix it in place and I've ordered the spring/leader assembly that tracerjack recommended.

spring leader.jpg

I will follow up when it arrives.
Thank you all again for answering all my "beginners" questions. You're very kind.
Joe
 

Swanicyouth

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I have four German clocks of somewhat similar configuration from this size to floor clock. I looked at them: 2 Beckers, a Junghans, & a Mauthe.

2 of them use leaders; 2 don’t. I think the brand is irrelevant as brands seem to make them both ways. I did notice though the rounded type hook at the top of the pendulum hooks to a leader:

972C5B5D-86C4-401B-BEAA-743917E2CA64.jpeg

49C418E2-21E1-4573-81A5-A6658D97482E.jpeg

And the “claw” type (like yours) hooks directly to suspension spring via a rod through bottom of the spring:

653A7071-DBB4-473B-86EA-5DE9F04D9E8C.jpeg


The suspension springs you can get from Merrits & they are literally a few dollars each. Of course - what size? There are many. You have to do a little research & googling to try & narrow it down - but it just needs to be somewhat close to work.

The rods that are sliding into into your pendulum are mainly “decorative”. They keep the pendulum in a strait plane, but there is no adjustment per se. I have a similar pendulum with 5 rods. You can affix them somehow so they look appropriate. All the adjustment is pendulum height through the rating nut.

My experience with these clocks is they are pretty accurate - maybe 2 mins a week give or take. The other think is, if your claw doesn’t somewhat easily fit through the foot of the crutch, there would likely be a leader as someone posted in the photo above.

Probably would work either way assuming total length of everything is correct & suspension spring is somewhat similar thickness.
 
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Joe Gargery

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OK, here's the follow up.
I received the spring/leader assembly (length 3-3/8") from Timesavers, unfortunately it was a hair too short and interfered with the very bottom of the crutch. So I went back to their catalog and ordered the next longest size of 3-11/16" which looked like it should do the trick. Justin informed me that they no longer offer that particular piece. So I asked if there was a longer one that I could purchase and modify for my purpose. Again no luck, they do not offer a longer spring/leader.
So at this point I thought my best avenue was to come back here and see if there is another recommended clock parts supplier that I could try?
Thank you again, Joe
 

tracerjack

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The metal leader and the spring feather can be separated. If you can find a longer feather, you may be able to create what you need. The connector can sometimes be used again, but they are available to buy if it gets trashed opening it. You will need to check the measurements of everything carefully to make sure things will fit together. Parts often look right in the photos, but then when you carefully read the description, they are not right.
#108 Suspension Spring
Suspension Spring Connector
 
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Willie X

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Joe,
Looking for replacement parts for 130 year old clocks will lead to much waisted time and frustration, they simple are not available. You have to make new parts to mimic the original.

I have one of these movements in my shop now and the only straight forward repair will be to modify a commonly available American style (2 piece) suspension rod, as already stated.

Tea's second photo is the same movement too. It's a very common movement.

You will need an American style suspension rod (~40 cents), some tape, a hammer, and a very small (numbered drill). Once you determine the length, using your pendulum and tape, it will only take about 10 minutes to modify the bottom to match the photos.

Note, be sure to align and make fast all the loose pieces of your pendulum and center the range of rating nut before locating the cross pin. Willie X

IMG_20220614_122121.jpg
 

Joe Gargery

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Thanks guys, I appreciate that information. I wasn't aware I could change this up to a completely different style suspension rod. Just to be clear are you suggesting something like this?
susp.jpg

This one is 8" long. I believe it could possibly be cut to length and altered to fit.
 

Willie X

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Look for a .003" thickness, the longer the better.

It's not "completely different". It's very close to what your clock once had. Main difference is the newer replacements have a slightly thinner wire than the old ones.

You can't run a repair shop without a few bundles of these items.

Willie X
 
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Joe Gargery

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Thanks Willie, for some reason I thought my original part looked like that spring/leader that I purchased. All that was left on the clock when I got it was a broken piece of flat spring about and inch and a half long.
 

RJSoftware

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Some observations:

The crutch foot (the loop at end that does actual pushing), determines what style suspension is used. The simple round wire American style loop is designed to push a wire suspension.

Other crutch foot are thicker flat metal with a slot that is designed to capture a leader in crutch slot, requiring vertical manipulation to remove suspension leader. The idea being the suspension is locked in place and the design promotes the bob to glide straight. Avoiding wobble.

Then there are always exception, crossbreeds, etc.. But basically the wire crutch foot gets a wire suspension. Round pushes round.

One exception is wire crutch foot with oblong loop, this would function with flat bar leader/suspension. Then there is logic to the cross pin to hold the bob.

I agree with the solution provided, functional rules. Putting the bob cross pin as low as you can forming a small T at end maybe necessary as the bob will need to comfortably sit. Excess can prevent.

So, this means you'll have to cut the wire length, which in effect means you should construct the temporary pendulum/suspension. Else hit or miss.

But a simple solution is to bend a hook on end of your new suspension. A small hook just good enough to grab and hold bob by it's hook.

Set rating nut to the middle of full up and full down. Screw movement to any board you hang on wall, install hands and check time keeping.

Bend temporary hook up/down to adjust till your clock keeps time. Keep in mind that excess suspension wire has weight, so you should cut it off as it will mess with "pendulum center of mass" but if you cut too short by accident...

Once your happy with length mark the spot. straighten out the hook, beat flat and drill/install cross pin to hold bob properly.

Then you can fine tune with rating nut and install in the case.

Spend a few days timing your temp bob, what's the hurry? Accuracy is the fun part.

Also I want to mention, so much misplaced concern over suspension thickness. This has more to do with the weight of the bob and individual manufacturers discretion. Not time keeping. It's not designed to spring back and forth effecting escapement speed. It is designed to flex back and forth and promote a straight gliding bob.

The proof is in the position of the impulse, which is after the direction reversal. The impulse timing provides the necessary power, otherwise movement that use a simple string for a suspension wouldn't work, but they do.

You could argue that suspension spring thickness is designed into the escapement design but I haven't found one yet that wouldn't keep time with a thinner more compliant spring. Plus the industry pretty much got standardized with working tooth counts (I believe).

But if wrong I listen. No problem
 
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Joe Gargery

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Thank you for that detailed post RJS.
 

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