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19th c American 1850s? Waterbury Column and Splat Clock, info needed

captainclock

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Greetings everyone, this afternoon, I'll be picking up from a local person an 1850s or 1860s vintage Waterbury Column and Splat Clock that I know nothing about except that it is very similar to my Seth Thomas Column and Cornice Clock from the same time period as far as being a Brass Weight Driven Clock, and the clock from the looks of the pictures that were posted on Facebook Marketplace by the person I'm getting ghe clock from it appears to be almost mint (either that or profressionally restored) and it has all of its original parts with it yet including its original cast iron weights and the original winding crank and the original pendulum bob with it yet.

I wanted to get this clock so I could do a side by side comparison to my Seth Thomas Clock to see if I had gotten my Seth Thomas running correctly or not (the clock is running in beat properly, the stike is running correctly, seeing if I have the correct size and weight of pendulum bob, etc.)

Anyways the clock is $85 and I'm wondering if that's a fair price or not, or if I should see if I could talk the guy down on the price a little bit.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Levi

See Pictures below, which are the pictures from the original Facebook Marketplace posting.

Waterbury Column and Splat Clock.jpg Waterbury Column and Splat Clock 2.jpg Waterbury Column and Splat Clock 3.jpg
 

captainclock

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So I was able to pick up the clock today, and the person I got it from said it was his dad's clocks as his dad used to own an appliance store back in the day, and he had over 35 clocks that he had hanging up in his store at one time and he was selling off some of his dad's clocks because he was starting to run out of room in his house for them. The clock he said would run for a short amount of time but then it would stop, and I noticed it was because the original suspension spring was replaced at some point in time and was done incorrectly and also the crutch was bent out of whack, so I replaced the suspension spring with one that was the proper size and then bent the crutch until the clock ran at a proper beat and its been running fine since.

It had a paper label on the back that told about the model and if it was a 30 Hour or 8-day movement, but that paper label is pretty much gone now, but going by the looks of the movement, and the crank that was with it and the size of the weights and pulleys, I believe this to be a 30-Hour clock, but I could be wrong.
 

Jerome collector

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Glad to hear that you have it running. It's definitely a 30-hr clock. The labels were intended to be used in both 30-hr and 8-day clocks. The label is more of an advertisement of Waterbury's product line. Notice that it also states "CLOCKS AND TIME PIECES", which refers to striking and time-only products.
Mike
 

captainclock

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Well unfortunately even though the clock is running, its running too fast, I started the clock running around 6:30 last night and by 9:30 this morning the clock had gained 2 hours and 15 minutes, and I think its because the pendulum bob that came with the clock isn't original to the clock, its a dinky little thing that I think is supposed to go to a drop octagon regulator, and should be a larger 2" or so bob, but I'm not sure as I'm not familiar with these 30-Hour Column and Splat Clocks (I think thats the correct term for this type of clock, as it looks like it could be an OG as well).
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Not a column and splat as it does not have a splat.

Some call these clocks "ogee" clocks based upon the ogee molding @ the top and bottom, but that's not correct either.

I guess I would call it a 1/2 column clock?

The vast majority of these are 30 hour clocks. A few were 8 day. There are miniature versions which are spring driven.

A couple of words re: condition.

The tablet decoration is a modern decal.

The 1/2 columns have been overpainted with gold paint.

RM
 

captainclock

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Not a column and splat as it does not have a splat.

Some call these clocks "ogee" clocks based upon the ogee molding @ the top and bottom, but that's not correct either.

I guess I would call it a 1/2 column clock?

The vast majority of these are 30 hour clocks. A few were 8 day. There are miniature versions which are spring driven.

A couple of words re: condition.

The tablet decoration is a modern decal.

The 1/2 columns have been overpainted with gold paint.

RM
I knew the clock wasn't all original especially the tablet decoration because I saw that there was a bunch of scratches on the glass on the tablet which made me think that someone at some point in time scraped off the old hand-painted tablet decoration because it was either really badly damaged or because they didn't like the design and then replaced it with a water slide decal of a period correct design (the Federal Eagle design).

Also the pendulum bob doesn't seem to be correct either as the clock gains over 2 hours in a 12-15 hour period, which for an 8-day clock that would be more understandable but not for a 30-hour movement.

As for the columns what makes you think the gold paint on them isn't original? I ask because I know for a fact that it was pretty common for clocks like this to have a faux finish of some sort on their columns (like on my Seth Thomas Column and Cornice clock that has a faux tortise shell finish on the columns), and I've seen plenty of old clocks like this that had the columns that were painted a faux gold finish using a gold paint of some sort (whether it was paint with gold leaf in it or whatever.)
I don't have any reason to suspect that the paint on the columns on this clock isn't original. it may have been touched up at one point, but I doubt it was a later addition or not original to the clock case.
 

Jim DuBois

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I agree with RM that the columns appear to have been overpainted with more recent radiator paint. The first photo shows examples of column treatments of tortoiseshell, gold leaf, a badly messed up and overpainted column, and another clock with columns much like yours, also highly suspect of a more recent overpaint. The biggest clue about yours being an overpaint is the lack of crispness of details and unsmooth overall finish. Many clocks of this period show nicely finished columns. In the second photo, the first clock, has columns painted much like yours. Still, it is substantially more crisp than yours, the middle clock shows a failing finish of what appears to have been imitation rosewood paint, and the 3rd clock is one that appears to have lost the tortoiseshell overpaint.

16370_A x.jpg 3648_A x.jpg
 

Teckelhut

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You can tell by the weights if its an 8 day or a 30 hour. 8 day weights run about 9 pounds or so. 30 hour weights run half that size. I have an Eli Terry 30 hour column and splat and a Seth Thomas Ogee 8 day.

20210927_075436.jpg

Seth Thomas 8 day OG.jpg

Label ST OG.jpg
 
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captainclock

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Well I definitely was able to confirm that mine is indeed a 30-Hour Movement because the weights weighed in at about 2 lbs. 4 Oz. and 2 lbs. 15 oz. of which the heavier of the two weights I had installed on the time and the lighter one on the strike side, but because this clock seems to be running so blame fast (it gains 2 hours in a 12 hour period) I'm beginning to suspect that maybe the lighter weight should go on the time side and the heavier weight on the strike side, but I'm not sure as I'm not all that familiar with how weight driven clocks work, as most of the clocks I've had up until I got my Great-Grandfather's Column and Cornice clock and then this one were spring driven clocks and had all of their original parts with them.

Is there a general rule of thumb when it comes to placing weights on these old Weight Driven Clocks? Like is there one side of the movement that the heavier vs. the lighter weight goes onto?

Also looking at the columns on my clock just now in person, the paint looks pretty original to me, and it does not look to me like someone had painted over anything because, and if they did, they did a really good job at it because they didn't get any paint on the case in the surrounding areas, which I know from experience that usually if someone is amateurly repainting a previously painted portion of an old clock there is usually some paint on the surrounding areas on the case and that's not the case on this one (no pun intended).

I wonder if maybe it wasn't the lighting in the picture in combination with the distance at which the picture was taken that made the columns look "overpainted".

As you can see in the following 4 pictures the columns don't look to be "overpainted", at least not by an amateur because most cases where a clock was "overpainted" or "repainted" by an amateur (in my experience anyways) you'll see that they will get paint on the surrounding areas of the area that was repainted or overpainted and there isn't any signs of that on this clock, if there was any repainting or touch up or "overpainting" done to this clock the person knew what they were doing because they did a good job at "staying inside the lines" so to speak.
half-column clock column detail base left side.jpg half-column clock column detail base right side.jpg half-column clock detail upper left side.jpg half-column clock detail upper right side.jpg


As you can see on the picture of the tablet below, you can see some scratches on the glass that when I rubbed my fingers over the scratches they were only on the outside of the glass, not on the inside, I also looked on the inside to see if maybe the original tablet glass was replaced and it looks as if the glass is original yet as it still has the original wood retaining strips nailed inside the door around 3 sides of the glass, and unless someone did a really good job of stripping the old paint off the tablet, it appears that this tablet was never painted to begin with, and that if that was the case that would explain the later addition of the waterslide decal on the front of the glass because one of this clock's previous owners thought it was too plain looking.
half-column clock tablet detail.jpg

The pendulum bob pictured below was the one that came with this clock when I bought it, but when I run this clock with this pendulum bob installed the clock gains 2 hours over a 12 hour period which makes me wonder if the pendulum bob is an incorrectly sized replacement.
half-column clock pendulum bob.jpg
 
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Teckelhut

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That is very odd about the weights. The weights on both my clocks are very close to equal in weight. Maybe Waterburys are different, I dont know. I only have the Terry and the Thomas. Hopefully someone on the forum knows if that variance in weight is normal for that maker. If you find the answer I would honestly love to know myself.
 

captainclock

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That is very odd about the weights. The weights on both my clocks are very close to equal in weight. Maybe Waterburys are different, I dont know. I only have the Terry and the Thomas. Hopefully someone on the forum knows if that variance in weight is normal for that maker. If you find the answer I would honestly love to know myself.
Well I thought that was interesting too, the weights look to be original to the clock, although considering how many things appear to of been replaced/modified on this clock over the years who knows if the weights are original or not.

The dial, hands, case and weights, are the only things that appear to be original to the clock, the pendulum bob, the tablet decoration, and the winding crank are not original (at least the pendulum bob seems to be a replacement as the clock doesn't seem to be running right with it in place), the winding crank is a 1950s or 1960s vintage replacement as it says "West Germany" on one side of the crank and "1-Day" on the other side.
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Well I definitely was able to confirm that mine is indeed a 30-Hour Movement because the weights weighed in at about 2 lbs. 4 Oz. and 2 lbs. 15 oz. of which the heavier of the two weights I had installed on the time and the lighter one on the strike side, but because this clock seems to be running so blame fast (it gains 2 hours in a 12 hour period) I'm beginning to suspect that maybe the lighter weight should go on the time side and the heavier weight on the strike side, but I'm not sure as I'm not all that familiar with how weight driven clocks work, as most of the clocks I've had up until I got my Great-Grandfather's Column and Cornice clock and then this one were spring driven clocks and had all of their original parts with them.

Is there a general rule of thumb when it comes to placing weights on these old Weight Driven Clocks? Like is there one side of the movement that the heavier vs. the lighter weight goes onto?

Also looking at the columns on my clock just now in person, the paint looks pretty original to me, and it does not look to me like someone had painted over anything because, and if they did, they did a really good job at it because they didn't get any paint on the case in the surrounding areas, which I know from experience that usually if someone is amateurly repainting a previously painted portion of an old clock there is usually some paint on the surrounding areas on the case and that's not the case on this one (no pun intended).

I wonder if maybe it wasn't the lighting in the picture in combination with the distance at which the picture was taken that made the columns look "overpainted".

As you can see in the following 4 pictures the columns don't look to be "overpainted", at least not by an amateur because most cases where a clock was "overpainted" or "repainted" by an amateur (in my experience anyways) you'll see that they will get paint on the surrounding areas of the area that was repainted or overpainted and there isn't any signs of that on this clock, if there was any repainting or touch up or "overpainting" done to this clock the person knew what they were doing because they did a good job at "staying inside the lines" so to speak.
View attachment 676726 View attachment 676727 View attachment 676728 View attachment 676729


As you can see on the picture of the tablet below, you can see some scratches on the glass that when I rubbed my fingers over the scratches they were only on the outside of the glass, not on the inside, I also looked on the inside to see if maybe the original tablet glass was replaced and it looks as if the glass is original yet as it still has the original wood retaining strips nailed inside the door around 3 sides of the glass, and unless someone did a really good job of stripping the old paint off the tablet, it appears that this tablet was never painted to begin with, and that if that was the case that would explain the later addition of the waterslide decal on the front of the glass because one of this clock's previous owners thought it was too plain looking.
View attachment 676730

The pendulum bob pictured below was the one that came with this clock when I bought it, but when I run this clock with this pendulum bob installed the clock gains 2 hours over a 12 hour period which makes me wonder if the pendulum bob is an incorrectly sized replacement.
View attachment 676731
Your close-ups reinforce my assertion that the columns were overprinted.

RM
 
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captainclock

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Your close-ups reinforce my assertion that the columns were overprinted.

RM
And exactly how does that "reinforce" your assertion (assumption)? Like I said previously unless the person knew what they were doing it looks original to me, because if it was done by just your everyday Joe Schmoe who didn't know what he was doing there would of been lots of paint splatter on the case surrounding the two columns and there is no paint splatter to be seen on the case surrounding the columns as you could see in the pictures I posted.

So either a.) the person who "overpainted" the columns knew what they were doing and was doing it as a way to preserve the old deteriorating paint underneath (which would be a very likely scenario rather than the scenario you are trying to "paint" where it was done in a maniacal manner where someone was trying to intentionally ruin the clock or be deceitful by painting fake gold paint on the columns), or b.) the paint is original and the "overpaint" you are seeing is where someone touched up the original paint where it was chipped off or flaked off in order to keep the clock looking decent, of which the later seems more likely than the former.

It seems like every single clock I've posted on here that was definitely an antique time piece that I was aware had some flaws to it (and I never claimed my clocks were mint condition examples, or museum quality pieces) you've gone and posted some sort of snide and rude/demeaning comment saying that my clocks were worthless or garbage because of their "condition".

You even made the same rude and mean comments in my thread where I was posting about my watch collection where I was just asking for some information about some of my watches as some of them were swiss watches that were marked with an unknown brand name to me.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop trolling in my threads and making rude comments in my threads, because it is uncalled for, and unnecessary.
 

Steven Thornberry

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It seems like every single clock I've posted on here that was definitely an antique time piece that I was aware had some flaws to it (and I never claimed my clocks were mint condition examples, or museum quality pieces) you've gone and posted some sort of snide and rude/demeaning comment saying that my clocks were worthless or garbage because of their "condition".

You even made the same rude and mean comments in my thread where I was posting about my watch collection where I was just asking for some information about some of my watches as some of them were swiss watches that were marked with an unknown brand name to me.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop trolling in my threads and making rude comments in my threads, because it is uncalled for, and unnecessary.
I think you are going a bit overboard here. I was unable to find a post by RM about your watch collection, though I did find one by someone else that seems to fit the description you mention. I did find one post by RM about your Seth Thomas column and cornice that was not "snide and rude/demeaning." Let's keep this as civil as possible, lest I close this thread to further comments.

Help - Early 1860s Seth Thomas Column and Cornice Clock | NAWCC Forums
 

Jim DuBois

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You even made the same rude and mean comments in my thread where I was posting about my watch collection where I was just asking for some information about some of my watches as some of them were swiss watches that were marked with an unknown brand name to me.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop trolling in my threads and making rude comments in my threads, because it is uncalled for, and unnecessary.
You might want to listen to people who are experts in the field of clocks. Both RM and I have suggested to you the columns are over painted. Your detailed photos show it very well, if there is any doubt. And between RM and I, there are nearly 100 years of collecting experience. I also have about 50 years of restoration work to draw on. And both he and I are considered to be quite knowledgable in the field.
But I guess your hurt feelings will have to prevail. Like Steven T. above, I don't find RM being rude to you, unless you consider honest answers to questions you have asked, and those answers not telling you what you want, to be rude.
 
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captainclock

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You might want to listen to people who are experts in the field of clocks. Both RM and I have suggested to you the columns are over painted. Your detailed photos show it very well, if there is any doubt. And between RM and I, there are nearly 100 years of collecting experience. I also have about 50 years of restoration work to draw on. And both he and I are considered to be quite knowledgable in the field.
But I guess your hurt feelings will have to prevail. Like Steven T. above, I don't find RM being rude to you, unless you consider honest answers to questions you have asked, and those answers not telling you what you want, to be rude.
Well I'm sorry but I never asked for your guys "opinion" on the "condition" of my clock, I asked for information about the clock's age and correctness (correct parts, etc.) and whether or not the price I paid for it was fair or not and what style of clock it was considered, which does NOT include people giving out unwarranted "opinions" about whether or not the columns on the clock are "overpainted" or not, so to be honest, its best to keep your opinions to yourself when its not asked for when it comes to a timepiece's condition!

I don't care two flips if you guys are "experts" or have a century of collecting experience between you guys, when you given an "opnion" (assumptions) about something when you aren't asked for it then you're in the wrong in that case because I never asked for an assessment of the condition of the clock, and yet you gave an assessment anyways which is why I'm upset!

You really need to learn how to hold your tongue when it comes to giving out "information" that isn't asked for in the first place, then you wouldn't have this kind of problem!
 

captainclock

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I think you are going a bit overboard here. I was unable to find a post by RM about your watch collection, though I did find one by someone else that seems to fit the description you mention. I did find one post by RM about your Seth Thomas column and cornice that was not "snide and rude/demeaning." Let's keep this as civil as possible, lest I close this thread to further comments.

Help - Early 1860s Seth Thomas Column and Cornice Clock | NAWCC Forums
Mr. Thornberry, my main complaint is that "RM" gave me his "opinion" on the condition of the clock in question here (the one that is the subject of this thread) and I never asked for his opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) concerning the condition of the clock, all I was asking for was information on a possible date for the clock, the correctness of the clock (correct parts, etc.) and whether or not the price I paid for the clock was inline with the clock's potential value as an antique timepiece, but nowhere in my original post did I say I wanted an assessment of the condition of the clock, because I already knew that the clock had some issues that needed addressing (such as the tablet glass, and the running condition of the clock because of possibly having incorrect parts). So in this case this "derailment" of this thread was his fault not mine, because he brought up a topic about the clock that was never asked about in the first place in the original thread post. If "RM" had not made his presumptuous comment about the condition about my clock when I never asked for an assessment of the "condition" of my clock to begin with, this wouldn't of happened.

Please learn to control your members here especially when they are tempted to give out unwanted advice.
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Mr. Thornberry, my main complaint is that "RM" gave me his "opinion" on the condition of the clock in question here (the one that is the subject of this thread) and I never asked for his opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) concerning the condition of the clock, all I was asking for was information on a possible date for the clock, the correctness of the clock (correct parts, etc.) and whether or not the price I paid for the clock was inline with the clock's potential value as an antique timepiece, but nowhere in my original post did I say I wanted an assessment of the condition of the clock, because I already knew that the clock had some issues that needed addressing (such as the tablet glass, and the running condition of the clock because of possibly having incorrect parts). So in this case this "derailment" of this thread was his fault not mine, because he brought up a topic about the clock that was never asked about in the first place in the original thread post. If "RM" had not made his presumptuous comment about the condition about my clock when I never asked for an assessment of the "condition" of my clock to begin with, this wouldn't of happened.

Please learn to control your members here especially when they are tempted to give out unwanted advice.
I guess I missed the distinction between "correctness" and "condition". The latter does figure into assessing value and whether what was paid was "inline", or at least I so believed.

My apologies for this and my presumptuousness.

Part of participating in this Forum is the sharing of experience and knowledge. I will not burden you again in the future.

Good luck!

RM
 
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