1847 fusee exported to United States

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Jerry Treiman, Jan 27, 2017.

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  1. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    #1 Jerry Treiman, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2019
    I just bought this one, primarily because I liked that it is marked for an American retailer, but I also liked the nice Liverpool windows and overall look. It was not running and was missing the hour hand and crystal, but it looked clean inside and I took a chance. It turned out to just need some oil (and a cleaning eventually) and demagnetizing. I was fortunate to have a matching hour hand and the exact bullseye crystal! (The hands still need straightening, but I am being cautious with them).

    The name on the movement is J.K. Fellows & Co. in Lowell [Massachusetts]. It has a table roller escapement. What do you suppose the "WARRANTED" marking on the dust cap refers to?

    The sterling case has a London hallmark for 1847 and maker's mark for Ralph Samuel (RS in an oval). Samuel was located in Liverpool, and the movement, too, has a Liverpool look to me.

    James Knowlton Fellows was a silversmith and jeweler in Lowell from 1832 until at least 1860 under various partnerships, but used "J.K. Fellows & Co." from 1845 to 1855.

    Fellows_f.jpg Fellows19479_m.jpg Fellows_cap.jpg
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    Unmistakably Liverpool, (but not a "Runner"), and the word "Patent" on the cock foot can't refer to the table roller as it never was patented; just some marketing I think. I've never seen a cap engraved with "Warranted", and I wonder if this was down to Mr. Fellows?

    I think the hands will straighten with care, and it's nice to see what looks like the original seconds hand.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I thought that the coionclusion from previous discussion was that the words "Patent Detached" on a balance cock indicated a Massey escapement, but the word "Patent" alone indicated a Litherland rack?
     
  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    Both can be a clue, but like everything else, there will always be exceptions. I'm sure Jerry will confirm that it is in fact a table roller.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  5. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Thanks for the comments. Although I had hoped the "PATENT" engraving might indicate something more interesting, it has just a standard (for the period) table roller. The roller has a passing flat (?) rather than a passing crescent for the safety action (not certain of the correct terminology).
    It does have a stop lever that acts on the 4th wheel -- that feature wasn't patented, was it?
     
  6. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    Passing crescent and passing flat are perfectly acceptable terms. I don't believe that any balance brake mechanism was patented in the UK; the word "patent" was splashed around rather indiscriminately and was usually just a sales puff.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  7. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    I have an 11-jewel fusee watch, hallmarked 1856 and signed by Thomas Wright of Liverpool (who according to census records traded as a 'finisher' with his wife and two sons), with 'Warranted' on the cap. As far as I can see the movement is entirely conventional. I suspect that everything that has been said in this discussion about the word 'Patent' is equally applicable to 'Warranted'; in short, it means nothing except what the purchaser could be induced to read into it.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  8. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    #8 Jerry Treiman, Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2019
    These are the hallmarks inside the back cover of the case (and are the same as inside the case). One that I don't recognize is the small shape below the maker's mark. Does anyone know what this was for? (The mark to the right of the date letter was made by the winding arbor rubbing the back).

    Fellows_hallmarks.jpg
     
  9. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    It was some years ago when I posed the same question on this Forum and Graham proved quite conclusively that the single word patent was used to accompany a Massey escapement. When I checked my collection at that time I discovered that I too had original Massey escapement watches adorned with the single word 'Patent' on the cock and that they were all late on in the Massey's life, in fact both Graham and I have Massey V watches so marked.

    I would be unsure about the potentially frivolous use of the Patent indication, although the use of a stock balance cock with that legend already engraved may have been considered less of a risk with the knowledge that the watch was to be exported. However, 1847 is within the Massey escapement time frame so it is possible that the escapement was originally a Massey and later changed to table roller; it would not be possible to recognise if that were the case.

    It will be interesting Jerry, to see if there are any frame maker marks on the pillar plate when you do get around to doing the maintenance on the watch.
     
  10. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #10 Keith R..., Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2019
    Jerry, I picked up one from about 1850 according to the hallmarks. This one out of Maine and I
    assume it to be a Liverpool Runner.

    Keith R...

    Note, Patent on the balance cock.

    103_0237%20(800x600).jpg 103_0265%20(800x600).jpg
     
  11. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    It would be interesting to see the hallmarks on the case as, visually, I would have put the watch at earlier than 1850. I assume that this is English lever with table roller?
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Dave,

    I would put it earlier as well. By the way, my Massey V has no engraving at all on the balance cock or foot, it's completely plain.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Just asking again if anyone know what that small "bonbon" mark is below the case maker's mark on my Fellows & Co. watch? (post #8)


    I think it came up in another thread that, with regard to watches, one should never say always (or never, for that matter). I took a look through my small collection of early lever watches or movements and found the following:

    "PATENT" on the cock foot of my two rack levers as well as on two Massey IIs and four Massey IIIs
    "DETACHED" on the foot of two Massey IIIs and one table roller
    "DETACHED" on the foot and "PATENT" on the table of one Massey III balance cock
    "DETACHED LEVER" on the plate of one Massey II and one table roller (both 1/2-plate movements)

    (I am not including my Fellows & Co. example as it appears unique in this regard and may have been converted from a Massey)
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    I can only think that the strange mark is the jointer's, although these were much more commonly single numerals or letters.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  15. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Thanks, Graham. It is a reasonable supposition, but for the moment unprovable.
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    Indeed, and likely to remain so I'm afraid!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  17. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    My mistake Graham. I know that there was a discussion on the subject to which both you and I contributed and that the outcome of that discussion was much as Jerry has demonstrated above. it was quite a few years ago and that is my only excuse :screwball:. I guess I'm losing the plot!
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, here is one of my Massey 2 movements with nothing on it; no Patent. Hi, I did some research a while ago, on you know where; most of the Pocket Watches I looked at did not have Patent on them. Some of them may not be Masseys although claimed to be. Massey 3 with Detached Lever engraved on it. Massey 4 with nothing on it. Massey 5 with nothing on it. Massey 5 with nothing on it. . Massey 5 with nothing on it. . Massey 1 I cannot read it bad photo. . Massey 2 with nothing on it. . Massey 3 with nothing on it. . Massey 5 with nothing on it; I doubt it is a Massey 5. Massey 1 with nothing on it; Lovely engraving on Balance Cock. Massey 3 with nothing on it. Massey 3B with Patent on it. Massey 2 with Detached on it. Massey 3 with nothing on it. Massey 3 with nothing on it (Center Seconds). Massey 3 with nothing on it. Massey 5 with nothing on it. Massey 3 with nothing on it. Massey 3 with nothing on it. Regards Ray N Preston.jpg
     
  19. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    I would be very surprised to see a true Massey 4 on 'you know where' Ray, they are extremely rare, much sought after and sell for many thousands of pounds. I note the preponderance of Massey 5's in your researched data.
     
  20. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi DaveyG, I was only going on what the seller stated in the listing; I think from memory it was a few thousands pounds the Massey 4. Some of them were from the same seller in the UK. I just went through the listings on a day. Regards Ray
     
  21. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi DaveyG, I just found Massey 4 Pocket Watch by R Swales Preston; it sold for GBP12,000. Regards Ray
     

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