1989948 - 7th Pattern Damaskeen, marked "Adjusted Temperature 6 Positions Isochronism" and "Double Roller"
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18 size Bunn Special Research Thread
- Thread starter ben_hutcherson
- Start date
1989948 - 7th Pattern Damaskeen, marked "Adjusted Temperature 6 Positions Isochronism" and "Double Roller"
2858700 - 21 Jewel, "Illinois Watch Co. Springfield" in block letters on barrel bridge
- - - Updated - - -
1683416 - 21 Jewel, "D.R." near balance cock
Dave, I have not gone through all 8 pages of this thread, but it might get confusing if we include Bunn grade watches with the Bunn Special grade watches. They are very different watches. When someone says they have a 21 or 23 jewel "Bunn" or a 17 Jewel "Bunn Special" my ears perk up. Maybe Ben or the Moderator will look at your post. Great watch though, I love it!!!
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Thanks 179! About a 3rd of the posts from about #86 forward include other than Bunn Special info ... I'm not religious any which way others or the moderator wish to go with my post, even if that is to delete it! It's all good to me ... 
Hi Fred - it looks like continuous production of the model 4 stopped for a short while in 1895, and then was resurrected in 1897 (about 394,000 made in 11, 15 and a few 17J in grade 2 and grade 61), and then another 6500 or so in 1902 (15J grade 61), and then another 12,900 or so in 1907 (7J grade IWCo).
ps. the last 21J model 4 run (by serial number) looks to be a model 65, 1290981-1290990, in 1895 which was adjusted "TPI" and with "Jewels in settings - Patent regulator" ... and the last model 4 adjusted to "TPI" and with "Jewels in settings - Patent regulator" was a model 61 and 15J, with numbers 1626621-1626630, in 1902.
Model 5 1630612 third pattern, 2271982 4th pattern
Model 6 1283675 4th pattern, 1376609, 3rd pattern,
1443580 4th Pattern, 1688976 4th pattern (D.R.), 1711978 4th pattern (D.R.),
1763891 7th pattern, 1934076 8th pattern (Pennsylvania Special)
Model 6 1283675 4th pattern, 1376609, 3rd pattern,
1443580 4th Pattern, 1688976 4th pattern (D.R.), 1711978 4th pattern (D.R.),
1763891 7th pattern, 1934076 8th pattern (Pennsylvania Special)
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If you are still wanting information on 18S Bunn Specials, I own #2,384,688, marked adjusted 6 positions and re-cased in a Defiance base metal case. The dial is not great, but it will do for now.Brad Maisto
Attachments
I believe I have 2 examples from the last run of 21RJ-HN4L-T6PI. Additionally marked "Illinois Watch Co." and "Double Roller" (circular). This is a run of 50 movements. Serial numbers 3,449,151 to 200 from 1919. This is also the last run (I think) of any hunter case Bunn Specials. The double roller marking is in an unusual place for any Bunn Special. Interestingly, the second to last run of 21RJ-HN4L-T6PI, marked Illinois Watch Co. and Double Roller (circular) is the mixed run serial numbers 2,455,701 to 900. This is a mixed run with 23RJ-HN4L-T6PI-Double Roller from 1912. The examples given for this run do not have the "Double Roller" (circular) in the location of the last run. My examples are 3,449,171 and 3,449,188. The only other examples, with this location for the circular "Double Roller" marking I have seen, are in the DB: 1,286,024 (1895) 24RJ-HN4L-T6PI and 2,502,433 (1913) 23RJ-HN4L-T6PI. The difference in production years is very wide: 1895 to 1913 to 1919. What would account for this? Does anybody else have other examples with this particular Double Roller (circular) marking location?
Thanks Mike
Thanks Mike
Slow sales with 18s watches 'going out of favor' and these were not inexpensive watches...
You have a couple of nice ones there thank you for sharing....
I think these were only made in two time frames, something like 1912-13 and 1919, rather than there being continuous production. So differences between the two time frames might be expected? And aren't the serial numbers provided by marking_time model 5 rather than model 4 movements? My model 4 movements are open face ...
I'd think there's a good likelihood the 24J Bunn Special serial 1286024 that is marked double roller in that way likely didn't leave the Illinois factory until sometime in the 1910's, despite its low serial number which would typically match to mid-1890's production date.
This type of scenario is seen among Hamilton Watch Co. watches when a movement will have a "late" style marking that seems far out of character with its serial number range - but with Hamilton we have the advantage of the factory ledger records and almost invariably when there are "late" movement markings on a low serial numbered Hamilton movement the ledger will show that particular movement was not sold until a number of years later than most of the others in its run.
This type of scenario is seen among Hamilton Watch Co. watches when a movement will have a "late" style marking that seems far out of character with its serial number range - but with Hamilton we have the advantage of the factory ledger records and almost invariably when there are "late" movement markings on a low serial numbered Hamilton movement the ledger will show that particular movement was not sold until a number of years later than most of the others in its run.
Red-faced I am!! Additionally, I don't know how to edit my post #122 yet. Of course, these are Model 5 Bunn Specials not Model 4. They are lever set and hunter case configurations. I certainly know the difference. I own two Bunn 18S-16RJ-ON4P-TPI and one Bunn 18S-16RJ-HN5L-TPI. I have never seen a Bunn Special that was not either model HN5L and ON6L. If anybody has a Bunn Special in Model 4, they have a very rare watch. I would love to see one. I apologize for the error. Thanks for pointing out my oversight. The thing I found most interesting is the placement of the circular Double Roller marking. Based on these two examples from the last run of 50 movements, I would expect that all 50 movements are marked this way. The only other examples with this marking constellation seem to be scattered outliers in earlier runs of higher jeweled Bunn Specials. This run appears to have been designed this way. There may be other 18S grades with this particular marking constellation, but I have never seen one. So speaking of last runs. Here is serial number 4432859 from what I believe is the last run of Bunn Specials of any type. Run 4432601 to 4433000 in 1923. 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI. Black-filled markings on a standard 4th (bright spotted) pattern. This is not a distinguished specimen. It needs cleaning of movement and dial and refilling the missing black markings.
Mike
Mike
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No images at this time....but information
Serial # 1192557
Produced 1893 Model 4, Stem Wind-Stem Set
17 Jewels, Adjusted to Temperature Gold Timing Screws Simple Regulator
It is an ex-megger's watch with its index card of information....
Hold on a minute.... image from Chattanooga National convention display...all I can do at this time.
.
Terry, I know that model 4 Bunns are not terribly common(or at least not in 17j) but a Bunn Special is a totally different story.
I know this is off topic from the thread, but here's my 17j Model 4 Bunn.
Funny enough, I bought this from Fred and he knew he had it sold to me based on the PL. I'm sure he knew but didn't point out to me the rarity associated with 17j Model 4 Bunns.
I have been looking for a 17RJ-ON4P Bunn grade for a long time. But I was talking about Bunn Specials on this thread. I have always been intrigued by the "Flag" and "Banner" adjustment markings because they are hard to find and I still cannot determine any reasonable purpose for them. The best theory I can come up with is that the earlier18S Bunn Specials were marked simply Adjusted in Old English. Some time around 1900, some Railroads wanted to have watches marked with their full adjustments. Illinois probably still had a number of plates already marked Adjusted and the Flag or Banner style marking fit into the available space. They seem to be grouped in certain runs and used up old stock while putting the more familiar adjustment markings on newer plates. Here are the ones in my collection.
#1536097 (1900) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI (Flag):
# 1536121 (1900) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI (Banner):
My theory does not explain why Illinois would use two different marking styles for the same purpose. Any ideas or examples from other runs?
#1536097 (1900) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI (Flag):
# 1536121 (1900) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI (Banner):
My theory does not explain why Illinois would use two different marking styles for the same purpose. Any ideas or examples from other runs?
Another favorite marking on Bunn Specials is the "D.R." double roller marking that appears next to the balance cock where the much more common circular double roller ended up. The theory I have most frequently heard is that "D.R." was too vague so Illinois switched to the circular style. Again the "D.R." marking appears in certain runs around 1903 and 1904. Here are the examples in my collection:
#1683446 (1903) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI-D.R.. This is the earliest run I have been able to find with the "D.R." marking.
#1711723 (1904) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI-D.R.
#1711914 (1904) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI-D.R.
This still leaves the question about the adjustment markings. If Illinois was using up old stock marked "Adjusted" in Old English in 1900. Why do we still see thousands of movements with the Old English Adjusted marking without any banner or flag. I have heard of another theory that watches bought around 1900 were returned to the factory by the individual owner to add the flag or banner adjustment marking. If this were true then why do the flag and banner markings only appear on the 4th (bright spotted) pattern. If they were returned for additional markings by individuals why don't we see the a distribution reflecting the number of 2nd and 3rd pattern movements that were sold?
#1683446 (1903) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI-D.R.. This is the earliest run I have been able to find with the "D.R." marking.
#1711723 (1904) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI-D.R.
#1711914 (1904) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI-D.R.
This still leaves the question about the adjustment markings. If Illinois was using up old stock marked "Adjusted" in Old English in 1900. Why do we still see thousands of movements with the Old English Adjusted marking without any banner or flag. I have heard of another theory that watches bought around 1900 were returned to the factory by the individual owner to add the flag or banner adjustment marking. If this were true then why do the flag and banner markings only appear on the 4th (bright spotted) pattern. If they were returned for additional markings by individuals why don't we see the a distribution reflecting the number of 2nd and 3rd pattern movements that were sold?
One last example to consider. Movement #1729636 (1904) 18S-21RJ-ON6L-T6PI (Banner) with the D.R. marking as well. This is a fairly rare marking constellation. I have no explanation for it. Does anybody else have Bunn Specials with this particular marking combination?
Illinois is full of mysteries and oddities that appear and disappear. Illinois probably sold more private label watches than any other manufacturer. Tomorrow I hope to post the two PLs in my collection in the Illinois PL thread. To my eye, both are spectacular examples.
Illinois is full of mysteries and oddities that appear and disappear. Illinois probably sold more private label watches than any other manufacturer. Tomorrow I hope to post the two PLs in my collection in the Illinois PL thread. To my eye, both are spectacular examples.
Megger's book.. page 93, example #6 1729633 (the example in the image) is somewhere around here obtained at Daytona WWT show number of years ago, no pics available....
observed 1729655 in Jan 2012... both flag and DR marking
observed 1729655 in Jan 2012... both flag and DR marking
That run is listed in Meggers as 1729601 to 1730600. If all thousand movements are marked with this combination there should be more around. Meggers also footnotes this run as, "Some are all-over gold damaskeened, marked "EXTRA". the following run of 400 movements are listed as, 18S-24RJ-ON6L-"Pennsylvania Special" The gold patterns these movements are stunning. So far, it appears I will need two wallets to obtain an example of either of these movements.
Here is one of my two. I will post the other when I put it back together
I also posted this under the Illinois Private Label thread, but since this is an 18 size Bunn Special, decided to post it here as well.
Per the Illinois data base and the Illinois Encyclopedia by Meggers and Ehrhardt, this watch theoretically should have had the "First (circular) damaskeen pattern". It has the "Third (gold inlay) damaskeen patern. The Illinois data base shows a total production of 690 movements in four runs in 1895. However, that total production was supposed to be 690 movement with the circular, 1st damaskeen pattern.
Referring to the 14th post, on page 1 of this thread:
Ok, so if the first (circular) damaskeen pattern was not used, any idea as to total production of the third damaskeen pattern with gold inlay and total production of third damaskeen pattern with pink inlay? Was there a fifth damaskeen pattern?
I just acquired this 18s, 21j, Bunn Special Grade private label watch. It is a private label, made for J. A. Hesselbom, a Swedish immigrant, born in Sweden on Jan 20, 1851 and died in Chicago, IL USA on Oct 5, 1917. He was a watch and clock maker, jeweler, and optician whose business was located at 103 Garfield Boulevard in Chicago, IL from the late 1800's until his passing in 1917. The watch is in good operating condition, but the dial needs a cleaning and the hands do not look original to me. Items that can be easily addressed later.
Quoting from The Jeweler’s Circular & Horological Review; Feb 9, 1898, pp 38-39:
“J. A. Hesselbom is a jeweler and optician at 103 Garfield Boulevard, Chicago. He is a Swede, who came to this country some years ago, with the careful training in hand watch making which the old countries give their children. On the wall of his shop is a clock in which he takes great pride, and which he compares with the Government time every day to note the variations in it. This is from nothing to two and one-half seconds a day, averaging about one second a day. On this clock he got when a young man of 20, a medal and a diploma from the Upsala Stadt Fabriks och HandtverksFoerening, for “flit och arbetsskicklichet” which means for diligence and workmanship.
Upsala is the university town of Sweden, and the above mentioned society is composed of master tradesmen, one from each trade. They meet once a month, and consider such specimens of craftsmanship as young workmen submit to them, and when these are good enough they award medals and diplomas. This clock earned Mr. Hesselbom 20 crowns, a silver medal (the wreath of oak leaves of which denotes particular excellence), and the highest diploma awarded in five years. No wonder he is proud of his clock, and watches each second variation in it.”
Per the Illinois data base and the Illinois Encyclopedia by Meggers and Ehrhardt, this watch theoretically should have had the "First (circular) damaskeen pattern". It has the "Third (gold inlay) damaskeen patern. The Illinois data base shows a total production of 690 movements in four runs in 1895. However, that total production was supposed to be 690 movement with the circular, 1st damaskeen pattern.
Referring to the 14th post, on page 1 of this thread:
So what defines an 18 size Bunn Special "variant" and differentiates one from another? My answer would be the different arrangements of these factors ...
- Jewel Count. 21, 23, 24, or 26.
- Hunting Case or Open Face.
- Damaskeen. I like sticking with Meggers' names of Bright Spotted (fourth pattern), Gold Inlaid Circle (third pattern) which comes in both yellow and pink 2-tone colors, Narrow Striped (sixth pattern), All Over Gold Inlaid Circular (seventh pattern), Linear-Circular (eighth pattern), and Wavy Ribbon (second pattern). Let me add here that I don't believe a separate "Circular" (first) pattern as was described by Meggers actually exists among factory marked 18 size Bunn Specials.
- Movement Markings. The first level is differences in the content of the markings. Beyond this we can continue to differences in the arrangement, style, and color of movement markings.
- Regulator. Hunting case model Bunn Specials used Chalmer's regulators until somewhere in the 1.28 million serial range, I think its useful to nail down this changeover point and then get separate production figures on these.
- Private Labels. These will frequently be a separate class onto themselves. Some will slot neatly into the same types as known factory marked variants, but some will not due to differences of damaskeen and/or other movement features.
I just acquired this 18s, 21j, Bunn Special Grade private label watch. It is a private label, made for J. A. Hesselbom, a Swedish immigrant, born in Sweden on Jan 20, 1851 and died in Chicago, IL USA on Oct 5, 1917. He was a watch and clock maker, jeweler, and optician whose business was located at 103 Garfield Boulevard in Chicago, IL from the late 1800's until his passing in 1917. The watch is in good operating condition, but the dial needs a cleaning and the hands do not look original to me. Items that can be easily addressed later.
Quoting from The Jeweler’s Circular & Horological Review; Feb 9, 1898, pp 38-39:
“J. A. Hesselbom is a jeweler and optician at 103 Garfield Boulevard, Chicago. He is a Swede, who came to this country some years ago, with the careful training in hand watch making which the old countries give their children. On the wall of his shop is a clock in which he takes great pride, and which he compares with the Government time every day to note the variations in it. This is from nothing to two and one-half seconds a day, averaging about one second a day. On this clock he got when a young man of 20, a medal and a diploma from the Upsala Stadt Fabriks och HandtverksFoerening, for “flit och arbetsskicklichet” which means for diligence and workmanship.
Upsala is the university town of Sweden, and the above mentioned society is composed of master tradesmen, one from each trade. They meet once a month, and consider such specimens of craftsmanship as young workmen submit to them, and when these are good enough they award medals and diplomas. This clock earned Mr. Hesselbom 20 crowns, a silver medal (the wreath of oak leaves of which denotes particular excellence), and the highest diploma awarded in five years. No wonder he is proud of his clock, and watches each second variation in it.”
I wanted to add my New Bunn Special to this very informative thread.
# 1588833 a 1901 Model 6 with the pink inlaid circle, I think Pattern 3? I also don't know if the dial is correct.
Jay
# 1588833 a 1901 Model 6 with the pink inlaid circle, I think Pattern 3? I also don't know if the dial is correct.
Jay
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