17th Century Dutch Rock Crystal Watch

[Kurtis]

Hey Everyone,

I recently acquired what appears to be a mid 17th century watch by W. Vanden Berg of Haerlem, The Netherlands. It is in a clear rock crystal fascited case. The two piece case has a silver frame. The back is bowl-shaped to house the movement and the top crystal and silver frame is hinged and swings up. The movement is very nice and ornate and is a pre-balance spring type. The movement still appears to have its original gut cord that is attached. The stem and bow appear to be original and the bow has what appears to be two small hallmarks.
My question concerns the dial. It appears to have considerable age and may be original, however dials on the few other examples that I have found from this time period are gilded where this appears to be a brass dial with gold leaf. The markings and roman numerals are very well done and in the style of the 17th century, but I have been unable to substantiate this type of dial on any other watch. It is quite possible that the dial was redone many, many years ago, but any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Equally any additional information on this type of watch would be helpful.
I have included several pictures for you inspection.

Thanks,

Kurtis Meyers

 

[clockclub]

Hi Kurtis!
I congratulate you on such a wonderful purchase!
Expect that the dial has a more recent origin, but perhaps I am wrong.
According to the picture dial is very difficult to identify something.
Best regards,
Igor.

 

[RON in PA]

I can't answer your question, but thank you for posting the pictures of your outstanding watch.

 

[clockclub]

This dial has features not typical of the early 17 century.

 

[Ansomnia]

Kurtis, you have a very nice watch from a very interesting period of watchmaking.

I believe the dial is likely a replacement. The watch itself does indeed appear to be ca. 1650. However, dials from that period would have featured engraved markings while your dial appears to have painted markers. On your watch, the engraved markers were probably on a silvered chapter ring over a fire-gilt dial plate. They would not have used goldleaf as that would wear off much faster from normal use. To understand what the dial should look like, you should compare the workmanship of the dial to the workmanship of the engravings on the backplate. The watchmaker would certainly have employed at least the same level of refinement for the dial as on the backplate. A good source of similar watches to look at would be books on the Sandberg Watch Collection which was auctioned in Geneva by Antiquorum, March 31/April 1, 2001.

It is possible to reproduce a proper dial for your watch as this watch was probably in the "Puritan" style (consistent with the use of silver in the case frame) which would have featured a great deal of restraint in ornamentation, making such a restoration much easier to achieve in an acceptable manner. IMO, you should use the services of an expert on such watches, not just someone who has engraving skills. The restorer must know what these watches were about otherwise I suspect he will make critical mistakes that would likely defeat the purpose of an authentic restoration.

BTW, the (apparently crisp flat-headed) screw used on the balance cock is not correct - such screws were very pronouncely round-headed and blued. Unless the watch was put away and left unused since the 17C, the gut would have been replaced many... many times over the centuries - I know from personal experience as I use gut musical instruments. You can get a proper replacement from stringed musical instrument stores that cater to period instrument performers. Their gut comes in various gauges and grades.


Michael

 

[Kurtis]

Thanks to all for your replies! Michael, the dial is engraved on the inner and outer chapter rings but you are correct that the numerals and markers are painted...not engraved. Can you suggest anyone to consault on restoring the dial?

As a side note I was at the NAWCC library in Columbia today and just by chance spoke to a long-time collector visiting from Austria. He examined the watch and corrected my opinion that the dial was gold leaf. Rather he indicated it was in his opinion, fire-gilt. He also indicated as you did, that typically dials from this period had an engraved chapter ring, markers and numerals.

I would like to restore the watch properly. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Again,

Kurtis Meyers

 

[harold]

Kurtis

Here are 2 pictures of a German rock crystal watch I once owned. My pictures are not great but might help with the dial.
-> posts merged by system <-
The second picture of the movement won't load up. Sorry.

 

[clockclub]

Hi Harold!
You can try again to upload your picture movement?
Very interesting to see.
Best regards,
Igor.

 

[harold]

Here is my second try. I reduced the picture size.

 

[clockclub]

Thanks!

 

[Ansomnia]

Kurtis, I think there are 3 important points for you to keep in mind when dealing with the restoration of your watch: 1) expertise, 2) logistics and 3) authenticity.

As regards point 1, expertise, since the watch is Dutch, you are likely to get the best expertise from a Dutch watch expert, most likely in The Netherlands. They will also know the local history better and know which Dutch museum may feature similar watches. I believe historical context is also important when dealing with artifacts that are missing crucial components and documentation. The Dutch seems to have been able to retain old-world expertise and the highest quality of work despite the ravages of our so-called "modern" societies. I think you can find the needed level of workmanship in The Netherlands. The Dutch generally excel in foreign languages and would likely be able to communicate well in English.

You next best option for expertise may be from the UK where there is a very highly developed market for such antiques. But IMO, I think it's better to find a Dutch restorer.

Point 2 relates to logistics as in how to manage the process of sending the watch and working with the restorers. Of course, the best thing is to work with someone living very close to where you are, speaking the same language, living in the same time zone and charging local currency with low sales taxes. With The Netherlands, you'll be paying in EURO but you probably won't have to pay sales taxes as the transaction would not be local. Still, it is a bit of a pain to communicate with people who are at least 5 hours ahead in time zone differences.

Point 3 refers to how authentic your watch currently is. If you base your restoration on what is there then you need to first determine how authentic the whole watch is. The basis of your restoration plan must be clear if not completely solid. So before embarking on restoration, you likely have to make sure you have the final word on what your watch really represents. The verdict on the dial plate being fire-gilt is a good sign and if I were you I would carefully check the dial plate to see if it is actually original and perhaps may simply have lost its original chapter ring? Also check the entire watch and note what may not be original to come up with a complete picture of what this watch "should be" restored as, if you decide to restore at all.

Should you pick a restorer, make sure they have proper training credentials and affiliations to reputable professional organizations that have a vested interest in the restorer's professionalism and quality of service. That's your real leverage. I have not had to send stuff to such restorers but the NAWCC does have references to many horologists. Try this link.

About Harold's watch, it's another fascinating and wonderful piece but IMO his watch is older than yours by about 20 years. It has to do with differences in the design of the case and the movement. If you have looked into these watches you should also be aware of the history behind their development. Harold's watch reflects a period when makers turned to making elaborate cases and ornamentation... because technical advancement was so stagnant at the time. But as time passed, other historical factors impacted the way these watches were made. Haerlem was a northern town dominated by Protestants at the time when your watch was made. I think it would be helpful to understand the possible effects of The Reformation and Calvinism on the tradesmen of Haerlem. In any case, I believe your watch's dial looked noticeably different from the dial on Harold's watch.


Michael

 

[Ansomnia]

By a stroke of luck, I took a stab at locating Internet photos of a suitable watch and this Edward East watch came up.

Notice the mentioning of Haarlem in the descriptive text accompanying these images. This one is a full-blown "Puritan watch". Your watch may have derived from the same basic design but may not necessarily have the same dial if the rock crystal case of your watch is original. It may have been somewhat less austere.


Michael

 

[Kurtis]

Thanks to all for the great advice, photos and information! Harold, you had a beautiful watch...was the back also rock crystal or just the front?

Michael… a special thanks for your very detailed suggestions on following a process for the restoration. It will serve as my pathway if I decide to move forward!

The Edward East dial is very simple as you say, but I agree that one like it or slightly more elaborate would be appropriate to my crystal watch. I believe it was in Britten's that I read that many crystal watches from the mid 1600s had such simple dials.

I guess the decision that I must now make is whether I go forward with restoration or leave the watch in its present condition.

I have attached a photo of a watch that was recently sold at Dreweatts in England. It is from Jan Jansse Boekels the younger around 1635. He originally worked in Haarlem and then moved to the Hague. It has a date window above 12:00, which mine does not, but also is a very simple dial in a equally simple gold case.

Thanks again for everything!!!

Kurtis Meyers

 

[harold]

Kurtis

Only the front was rock crystal.

 

[LloydB]

Hey Everyone,

[snipped]
My question concerns the dial. It appears to have considerable age and may be original, however dials on the few other examples that I have found from this time period are gilded where this appears to be a brass dial with gold leaf. The markings and roman numerals are very well done and in the style of the 17th century, but I have been unable to substantiate this type of dial on any other watch. [snipped]

One detail on the dial is somewhat interesting:
there appear to be additional subdivisions in the
chapter ring, only between the hour markings for
6:00 and 7:00. The subdivisions appear to be for
12-minute intervals.

These could have been added to delineate some
special duties, either AM or PM, or both, of course.
Can anyone suggest some historical or vocational
significance for that detail? (Division of only that
particular hour, and into five segments, not four,
has me curious.)

(It's best seen in the final image in the original posting.)

There's also the stark contrast between the very
plain, white steel balance, and the gilt, ornamented
finish of the movement plates and bridges. Is that
a common characteristic of watches of the period?
.