1796/97 Richard Haywood 'verge discovery'

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by John Matthews, Oct 27, 2018.

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  1. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Because the staff is usually left pretty hard, this can too easily happen!

    DSCF3138.JPG

    Then you have to go back and do this:

    DSCF3198.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  2. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    This discussion raises interesting questions about the English verge. If you search the material services and supplies you will find "verge wire", which is the drawn stock in the shape of the english verge. It is a round rod with the flag strip down the side.

    To make a verge, one cuts a section the correct length and then files out the excess verge flag material. At this point the verge flags are in a line and this must be "corrected." The procedure for those using this material is to collet the two end and heat the center section until soft and then twist the material to the desired angle.

    It seems pretty uncivilized to me, but I suspect it was really quick and easy when it was in common use. My presumption has been that it is also the reason the strange English form of the verge exists.
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    I agree, it is rather barbaric, and your theory about the 'verge wire' sounds like a reasonable explanation for the English form. The method of twisting the heated staff after forming the flags is the one which Bill Gazeley advocates in his book on escapements, and it clearly was the received practice, although he doesn't mention the use of the specially drawn wire. The use of this technique may explain the quite random state of a good many staff pivots, not necessarily due to wear. The flags must have been polished before the wheel collet was soldered in place. Unfortunately I've never come across an example, and in its absence I use the same method as John Wayper did on your Arnold.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  4. John Matthews

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    This afternoon I have positioned the hairspring on the top plate following Graham's suggestion in post #41. I have deviated from his instruction in one respect. I have not attempted to pin the spring, although I have passed it through the stud and through the regulator index pins. My reasons for my deviation are, firstly, I am concerned with the condition of the spring at the point it was previously pinned – it had a significant kink that I have partially straightened. I want to minimise any further manipulation in that part of the spring. Secondly, I reasoned that while the pinning might impact the shape of the spring, so will the act of replacing the spring on the shaft, so on balance, I decided that there was little to be gained by pinning the spring and the possibility, that in doing so, I would further weakening the spring.

    I attach two photographs with the spring positioned as close as I could achieve, centred over the lower pivot hole in the potence. The index is positioned at one end of its travel and someone has previously marked the other extreme with two scratch marks. My conclusion is that there is little or no adjustment required, but I would appreciate second opinions.

    20181109 002-3.jpg 20181109 001-3.jpg

    John
     
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    When you do finally pin the spring you might find that it changes position slightly, but for the moment that looks pretty close. The pin should be brass, tapered and have a flat filed along it. This means it ends up with a 'D' section and is inserted so that the flat goes against the spring. This allows the spring to be less stressed by having to bend in two different planes. It also makes it easier to turn the spring and pin together to bring the plane of the spring parallel with the plate once it's pinned.

    The regulator is ideally adjusted to the middle of its travel and the balance timed to run to time in that position. As there are no screws or other methods to adjust the balance wheel, after setting in beat by turning the collet on the staff, the pinning point may have to be moved to bring it to time, and then the beat re-adjusted. With these shorter hairsprings with relatively few coils, a small movement of the regulator, (or of the collet), results in a significant change in the rate. As the pinning point in your spring has something of a vertical kink, this may be a problem, because if you have to pin it further towards the outer end, the whole spring will be tilted up or down and may end up rubbing on the wheel or the plate.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  6. John Matthews

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    Graham - I continue to appreciate your detailed comments.

    I was not familiar using a 'D' section pin - your description of its action makes perfect sense.The fact that I have not noticed it when I have removed pins in the past, may in part be because I was insufficiently observant, but I suspect while the original pins may have been of that form, very few replacement pins would have been. I have noted your second paragraph and will return to it when I reached that stage of re-assembly.

    John
     
  7. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith R... likes this.
  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    A few top makers carried this to its logical conclusion, and used a pin with a square section in a square hole, notably Thomas Tompion and George Graham.

    Regarding the 50% solution for the first rinse, I still don't see the point, unless the surfactants and detergents, (which would surely be there in the cleaner), weren't soluble in the alcohol and had to be removed in the water component.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. John Matthews

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    Graham,

    I think the fact that the writer had access to the 45% solution and cost are likely to be why it was used. The cleaning solution is ammonia based and ammonia is soluble in IPA, but to a lower degree than water; whether there are any ammonia compounds present in the cleaning solution that are better removed by further dilution in the water in a 50% water/IPA rinse, I have no idea. I don't have the detailed chemical analysis of the solution and in any case, my organic chemistry knowledge is from 'A level' in the early 60's

    John
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I expect you'll find that the proportion of ammonia compound present is quite small; a little goes a long way!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. John Matthews

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    This morning I have inspected the spring and attach photographs. The arbor is better than many I have seen. The protruding hook is well formed and in good condition. The inner coils of the spring show no signs of ill-treatment. There are no kinks and the slot has not been deformed. The barrel stud has effectively been deformed to 'rivet' the mainspring to the barrel and I am reluctant to disturb it. The internal diameter of the barrel is ~15mm and diameter of the uncoiled spring is ~38mm as shown in the photograph. So ~2.5 times the barrel diameter.

    My inclination is to simply clean the barrel, spring and arbor, grease and re-assemble. I would appreciate any second opinions. The grease I have is Moebius 8213 is this suitable for the barrel and the high pressure arbors (barrel, fusee & centre)?

    20181112 001.jpg 20181112 002.jpg 20181112 003.jpg 20181112 004.jpg 20181112 005.jpg 20181112 006.jpg

    John
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    A picture of the barrel wall would be useful, but in its absence I can see that this has the hooking riveted into the end of the spring in the normal way. At this date some were beginning to use a round hooking rather than the traditional rectangular one. The hooking is designed to stay attached to the spring so it should just pull out of the barrel wall if you're careful and remember that it's angled to provide a secure seating when under pressure. I know it sounds rather counter-intuitive, but I think the older rectangular ones are easier to make than these, which are effectively elliptical.

    Although an expansion to at least 3x the barrel ID is recommended, if the spring is otherwise in decent condition and not coned or otherwise distorted or damaged, (the hooking into the arbor is a place to look carefully), I'd leave it alone.

    Moebius 8213 is a 'braking' grease specifically for auto winding barrel walls which allows the spring bridle to slip in a controlled way when fully wound. It's in the same family of 'classical' or 'natural' greases as 8200 and its other relatives. I know it's on the Moebius chart for the wall but I've never tried it on a fusee spring. I use Bergeon 6441, (the same as Jismaa), on the walls and the spring itself but that's getting expensive now, and the blue version is obsolete according to Cousins. A fully synthetic like 1000.620.005 would be a good alternative, but that's also quite pricey, about three times the old 8200, (a lot more if you work out volume for volume). As the friction in a mainspring is mostly from the coils sliding over one another and not much from the contact with the barrel lid and floor, a grease designed for steel-on-steel seems a reasonable compromise.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham

    I attach a photograph of a portion of the barrel wall.

    20181112 001-2.jpg

    The spring is still attached to the barrel. I have attempted to gently separate them. The second photograph confirms that there has been some movement and I can see the angled seating. It is a really tight fit. Is there much to be gained separating the spring from the barrel? I have checked the spring again in-situ and it seems to be in good condition. Unless it frees itself during the cleaning, I'm inclined to leave it attached, unless there is good reason separate it.

    20181112 002-2.jpg

    I didn't know what a 'spring bridal' was – but the internet came to the rescue.

    upload_2018-11-12_14-48-48.png

    So 8213 is a steel on steel grease and to use it on the barrel is, as you say, 'a reasonable compromise', particularly as Moebius indicates it may be used on the barrel wall. Given that is a steel on brass interface would also be able to use it on the high pressure arbors?

    John
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I expect it's because the hooking is elliptical, and the twist imposed by the rest of the spring being out of the barrel is holding it in place. It should come out with a little manipulation, because it's only a close fit, there shouldn't be anything else holding it in there. The question is, do you have a spring winder to put it back in? These are fairly substantial springs and you could end up coning it if you put it back in by hand, not to mention damaging the barrel lip.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  15. John Matthews

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    Hi Graham - I don't have a winder.

    Your question caused me to search the internet. It is clear that the overwhelming opinion is that a winder is the preferred method. I now understand the dangers of coning & barrel damage that you describe. Unfortunately, new winders are expensive - so the search is on for a used example. I think for the present exercise I will have to manage without.

    I have now put all the components through a second clean using the ultrasonic method and placed them in a covered container. I left the mainspring still attached to the barrel and after the ultrasonic treatment it remains firmly attached. My plan is to carefully reassemble it applying a small amount of grease to the spring and the inside of the barrel wall.

    John
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    The outer coil of the spring doesn't move relative to the barrel wall, only to its adjacent coils and the base and lid, which do need lubrication. I never put the springs in the ultrasonic, I believe it can accelerate any potential stress cracking in older springs; I guess I don't want to do the experiment to find out if that's true!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  17. John Matthews

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    Hi Graham,

    I had read previously not to put balance springs in the ultrasonic, but I had assumed that for the more robust mainsprings, it wasn't a concern. So you soak and hand clean the springs. Point noted for the future.

    With regard to winders, which I am trying to understand. I assume that for the Bergeon design, it is the shape of the hook on the winder arbor, that is the difference between the right-handed going barrel winders and the left-handed fusee spring winders. Is that correct? I was wondering whether it would be possible, in some way to eject the spring from the sleeve of a going barrel winder, into a second sleeve and then present it to the barrel. From my reading, it sounds as if using a winder can be tricky, so I am guessing that this would not be plausible.

    I have also seen pictures of 'vintage watchmaker's mainspring winders' that are vice mounted, Does anyone have experience of these? The examples in the photographs I have seen appear to be more suitable for clock springs, rather than for watches.

    John
     
  18. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Yes, that's right, the hook is facing the opposite way. I've modified some of mine with an extra hook to do this.

    You could do this, but the first wind would have to be significantly tighter so that the second one would still fit inside the barrel; this may not be good for the spring. Generally, if you select the correct size sleeve for the barrel, allowing for the hooking if it's a fusee barrel, they aren't particularly tricky. The other consideration if fitting a new spring, is its length. New springs with the appropriate width and thickness are nearly always too long for fusee barrels. There's a very good discussion on springs in David Boettcher's website here, including some useful calculators.

    I've never considered using one of these, although they were the standard model for a very long time. A lot of the examples you see are incomplete, and don't seem to me to be robust or even safe enough to use. I bought a fairly comprehensive set of the Bergeon type winders some years ago at an auction; I know the new ones now are a ridiculous price.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  19. Omexa

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    Hi, I use one of the Vintage Type that I modified; I could not afford the cost of the new ones. Vintage Type for Vintage person. Regards Ray
     
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  20. John Matthews

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    Hi Ray - any chance of a photograph and any comments you have on your experience using?

    John
     
  21. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Graham - thank you for the link to David Boettcher's website. I have read it quickly and noted it for the future.

    Two points. I assume all his photographs are of new springs, to explain why the inner coils of the springs in his photograph and diagrams are so much more open than the ones on the barrels I have dismantled. The arbor of Haywood verge is slightly less than a third of the inner diameter of the barrel - do they tend to be smaller on the verges of this age?

    I have now greased and re-fitted by hand the spring into the barrel. The task was relatively easy to execute. With the barrel secured in a movement holder, I used a small stiff artist's brush to apply the grease to the inner surface of the spring coils, the arbor, the base and cap of the barrel. Wearing latex finger cots, I found it straightforward to feed the coils back into the barrel. However, I did notice that some very small particles of latex had been deposited on the spring. I have attempted to remove these. The spring appears to fit reasonably flat into the barrel except for the innermost outer coil - I take this to be a indication of a small amount of coning. After replacing the cap I confirmed that the arbor has successfully engaged with the spring.

    20181114 001.jpg 20181114 002.jpg 20181114 003.jpg 20181114 004.jpg 20181114 005.jpg

    John
     
  22. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    They're usually around a third, give or take the odd 0.5 mm.

    This is preferable to leaving small particles of finger on it . . .

    You've done well to get it back in so neatly.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    :)
     
  24. John Matthews

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    The movement came with a broken chain. When I removed the regulator plate I discovered the broken barrel hook of the chain, I thought at the time this might have been all that had been lost from the chain and when it broke it became lodged beneath the plate. This morning I have wound the broken chain onto the fusee – as can be seen from the photograph, the broken end comes to rest half way around the uppermost groove. So my conclusion is, if the break did occur at the hook, the chain was probably a replacement which was too short and this may well have been the reason it broke. As far as I am able to judge the thickness and the height of the chain is correct, but I think the length of the new chain would need to be ~50mm. longer than the broken section. My plan is to source one ~220mm. (~8.5in.).

    20181115 001.jpg 20181115 002.jpg 20181116 012.jpg

    I also attach a few photographs of the plate with the crown wheel, contrate wheel, the barrel, fusee and centre wheel in place. I have applied a small amount of oil (M 8000) to the crown wheel pivots.

    20181116 005.jpg 20181116 006.jpg 20181116 007.jpg

    An advantage of taking macro photographs at each stage is that they often reveal if 'extraneous debris' – see the pivot of the fusee and contrate wheel (and yes, initially, it feels more like a disadvantage:rolleyes:)

    John
     
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  25. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    A chain that's too short would certainly lead to a break sooner or later. The present chain does appear to fit the fusee properly, with the slightly longer links typical of its age. Many of the chains on sale now are from later 19th century watches, which are thinner and narrower and won't fit this fusee. The chain should be long enough to leave at least a quarter turn on the barrel when fully wound to the stop.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  26. John Matthews

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    Hi Graham - thanks for your continuing support ...

    Although slightly longer at 23mm. (9in.), than I estimated to be the length of the chain required, I have found, what I hope will be a suitable replacement chain in my spares, my concern it might be too long. It is a good fit in the fusee cone as shown in the photographs and appears to have similar length links to the broken chain.

    20181116 001.jpg 20181116 002.jpg 20181116 002-2.jpg 20181116 001-2.jpg

    Although relatively clean, I need to check that all of the links are moving freely. Also, I have read the chain needs to be 'lightly oiled'. As well as M 8000, I have M 8140 and M 8200, which would be the most suitable and should I use one of these on the exposed fusee click? Incidentally, I decided not to dismantled the fusee.

    John
     
  27. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    A little too long shouldn't be a problem as long as there's enough room on the barrel for all of it when fully unwound. If you like you could remove a few links to make it shorter!

    I usually soak chains in a light machine oil such as 3 in 1 for a few hours once they're removed, then check to see if there are any stiff links or corrosion. For any more than light corrosion, phosphoric acid takes care of it. If they are at all stiff, running them round a tight radius whilst they're still oily should free them up. Then they're rinsed in some naphtha, (lighter fuel), to get rid of the oil, and put in the ultrasonic with the rest of the parts. I don't usually find that they need lubricating if they're reasonably clean after that treatment. Oiling can attract dust and fluff, so I think they're better without it.

    Fusees with external clicks don't suffer from lack of lubrication like the later type with internal clicks; everything's more accessible for oiling or greasing. However there are internal bearing surfaces in both types, and dismantling for cleaning is really recommended. I use just a smear of a semi-liquid grease, (8200 will do fine), on the click. Again, too much can attract the dirt.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  28. John Matthews

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    I will soak the chain overnight, then check and clean it tomorrow, prior to starting assembly. Thanks for the lack of/lubrication recommendation for the chain & click.

    John
     
  29. John Matthews

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    The chain soaked overnight and today I suspended it for an hour to allow some of the surplice oil to drain Having now been cleaned, rinsed and dried it is ready for fitting.

    The train has been assembled and the pivots very lightly oiled as recommended by Graham. I am pleased that it moves freely when the fusee is turned very gently. The regulator is in place, at the second attempt, positioned it at the midpoint of its travel. After the first fitting I realised I had covered the contrate pivot. Lesson learnt – oil the pivots before fitting the regulator.

    20181117 001.jpg 20181117 002.jpg 20181117 003.jpg 20181117 004.jpg 20181117 001-2.jpg

    John
     
  30. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    The moment of truth is drawing near!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  31. Keith R...

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    As I await the outcome of this old verge, I'm rummaging through my drawers for
    a 1796 Verge I could send John to practice on, (with a return address inside the
    box).;)

    Just having fun guys, but if you start at the top and follow to the end, it's not only the
    process for an old verge, it's the collaboration along the way! :)

    Keith R...
     
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  32. John Matthews

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    and as it approaches, I am taking small careful steps, trying to ensure that a last minute mistake of my making, is not the cause of failure ….

    Accordingly, although the next step according to Barrow's small repair book, is to fit the fusee chain, I decided that having never attempted to fit a verge balance, and concerned that the flags look vulnerable to mishandling, I would 'dry-run' positioning the balance without the spring, before I attempted to fit the chain.

    I reasoned that to avoid damaging the flags, as I manoeuvred the balance staff past the crown wheel and to subsequently bring the shaft into the correct position, I needed to know the position of the flags at all times. To this end, I marked a point on the balance wheel corresponding, as close as possible, to the midpoint between the two flags. This enabled me to orientate the flags diametrically opposite the crown wheel as I inserted the staff. Once I had located the pivot in the pivot hole, I gently rotated the balance so that flags engaged with the crown wheel. I did this by aligning the mark on the balance wheel with the crown wheel shaft. As the flags became aligned, I could see the contrate wheel 'twitching' – which I took as a positive sign. Finally, I carefully fitted the balance cock, ensuring the upper pivot was correctly seated. Once the cock was in position, I very carefully rotated the contrate wheel with the end of a tooth pick moving it just a few teeth at a time which caused the balance wheel to rotate.

    20181119 002.jpg 20181119 001.jpg 20181119 003.jpg

    While this may not prove that the escapement will function perfectly correctly after final assembly, it has given me more confidence that I should be able to bring the balance to its correct position without damaging the flags.

    So I will now turn my attention to fitting the fusee chain and in order to do that I need to find a suitable replacement set-up ratchet.

    John
     
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  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    All good safe procedures!

    This is, after all, how verges were run for centuries before the balance spring was invented, so it should run that way, albeit at around half-speed. One thing to be aware of before applying any power, is to ensure that the banking arrangements work properly. If they aren't working, the balance can swing completely out of engagement with the escape wheel and can run through at high speed, potentially damaging its teeth.

    There are several ways of installing the chain. Winding it all onto the barrel first is the obvious one, and this can be made easier if a blob of Rodico is used to hold it all in place while you hook the other end into the fusee before giving the barrel square about a turn for the initial setup. If the barrel square is very short, or at all worn, this method minimises the risk of it slipping out of the key, (or better still, a pin vice). Holding the movement in such a way that the click falls into engagement under its own weight is helpful. It is possible to wind it all onto the fusee first, but then you have to use the barrel square to gradually wind the spring across as it runs down. This way is much easier if the movement is old enough to use a tangent screw instead of a ratchet and click, although you do have to find a way of turning the very small tangent screw square.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  34. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Great words guys and by the way, that is the same flat 3 arm balance wheel I asked Graham
    about on the 1816 Lawrance Rack lever. So evidently, they were in the designs and watches for
    some period of time, (Verges and Racks at least).

    Keith R...
     
  35. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Having located a suitable ratchet, this morning I turned my attention to the the fusee chain. I was able to wind it on to the barrel, using the method described by Graham. However, not having any Rodico, I used a small amount of 'Blue-Tac' as a substitute. I am not sure whether it has exactly the same composition, but it appears to have the same properties. I used the view through the macro lens to check that all was removed from the chain and barrel at the end of the exercise.

    As can be seen in the photographs, there is some overlapping of the initial turns. I debated whether to re-fit the chain, but I decided not to do so for a number of reasons. I would be testing the mechanism with a partial wind initially and the overlapping turns would not be disturbed; I might well discover a fault that would require the mechanism to be dismantled and the chain removed; if all went well and I did a complete wind test, the overlapping turns might be unwound, with no detrimental impacts. The fact that the chain is probably a little long, may be a problem if the wind stops before the overlap is reached, but I will face that if it arises.

    20181120 003.jpg 20181120 002.jpg

    I then turned to fitting the spring onto the balance. I used the photographs I have taken to check the position that it was originally fitted to the balance against the position of the spring when I tested it in place separated from the balance. I was pleasantly surprised how well the refitting went. I then carefully put the balance in position and pinned the spring. I used a pin with a flat against the spring as suggested by Graham. This proved very useful as the spring was initially high immediately before the post and I was able to correct this. As I was positioning the balance, I could see that small movements were causing the contrate wheel to 'twitch' – so looking positive. Fitting the cock was straightforward and the balance oscillated freely throughout the process.

    spring position.JPG 20181120 001.jpg 20181120 001-2.jpg 20181120 002-2.jpg

    Will it work? – the moment of truth …

    Answer no & yes!

    I first tried rotating the balance by gently moving it directly with a toothpick, it oscillated freely for just a few turns. I then applied slight pressure to the contrate wheel – the balance oscillated very rapidly but by only a few degrees. Although wary, as something was obviously not quite right, I rotated the fusee ~1/4 of a turn. The balance sprang into life rotating very rapidly, again with oscillations of just a few degrees. Not only that, the movement of the contrate wheel was not smooth – periodically it jumped forward. I reasoned that this probably meant that the crown wheel was slipping past the flags.

    Remembering the end shake, observed in the shaft (post #10) and Graham's explanation that 'when it is running the escape wheel tends to push the pivot into the follower' (post #9) and that 'if the escape wheel is too shallow into the verge flags it will result in reduced amplitude' (post #12). The conclusion I came to is that the end shake is allowing the crown (escape) wheel to move away from the flags and as a result the shallow engagement is causing the reduced amplitude and at times, possible when the flags miss engagement because of a worn tooth, the train jumps.

    So to test the theory I placed the movement on its side with the follower at the top and the crown wheel pointing down – now working perfectly QED!

    20181120 003-2.jpg

    Is this adjustment going to be a step too far, I ask myself ? :?| oh yes and is it safe to do a complete wind and run it on its side?

    John
     
  36. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    A qualified 'yes' to that. It's OK to try this if you have something ready to stop the contrate wheel if it starts to run away; a piece of Blu-Tac, (very similar to Rodico but perhaps a bit more oily), or a piece of thin card folded in half, but the better plan is to ease the follower in slightly until the escapement runs more securely dial down or dial up. The movement should never be allowed to run free in these circumstances. If you move the follower in too far the escapement will stop anyway and you'll have to ease it back out a touch.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  37. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham - a few question before I attempt adjusting the position of the follower ...

    Do they usually move relatively easily?

    In attempting to move the follower would you recommend rotating it a little first to release it? I don't think the eccentricity of the plug, would cause sufficient change in the alignment at the crown wheel end to be a problem.

    Any advice as to technique would be appreciated.

    John
     
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  38. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    First you must be careful that whatever tool you use to adjust it is narrow enough not to touch the contrate wheel teeth immediately under it; teeth can be damaged otherwise. If you twist it gently from side to side, if you're in luck it should move, not too freely and not too stiffly, then you can just ease it in the desired direction, in this case inwards. You can always twist it straight again afterwards.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  39. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham,

    I have rotated the follower plug gently and applied a little pressure to move it inwards. It moved relatively easily. After my initial attempt it appeared that I had moved it a little too far as the balance oscillated a few times and stopped. With a further small rotation and applying pressure to move the follower outwards, I appear to have achieved a desired result. The movement now works in all side positions, face up and face down. The amplitude of the oscillations appears to be what I would expect, although the rotation may possibly be a little fast. Time will tell!

    I have just wound approximately one turn of the chain onto the fusee and I will see whether it runs down overnight.

    My very grateful thanks for guiding me to this most satisfying point in this journey of discovery ...

    John
     
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  40. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I am pleased to report that the watch worked perfectly overnight in the dial down position.

    Also overnight, I remembered that in my haste during the final assembly, I replaced the balance cock, but forgot to oil the balance pivot hole. So after using some blue tac to prevent the contrate wheel from turning, as a result of any residual pressure on the train, I removed the balance to add a small amount of oil to the dry pivot hole. The mechanism sprang into life when the cock had been replaced, blue tac removed and half turn of the winding key.

    My plan over the coming days, is to gradually increase the amount of wind over a number of sessions, before I proceed to complete the rebuild. My concern is that because of the way that all of the chain is positioned at the 'top' of the barrel, the angle of the chain presented to the fusee during winding is such that the risk of the chain climbing out of the fusee grooves, is very high. I feel confident that this would happen if I attempted to a complete wind, so I am going to build to a complete wind progressively, easing the chain gently 'down' the barrel between each session.

    I will report back when I have (hopefully) achieved a successful complete wind.

    John
     
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  41. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Excellent work John, and very informative thread.

    Thanks
    Rob
     
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  42. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    You can move the chain down after each half-turn of the fusee, just be careful not to tip it over. That way you can bring it down gradually so that it's nicely aligned with the fusee groove. A pair of brass or bronze tweezers is useful for this sort of thing. I expect you'll find brass ones easier to find than the bronze, but you do have to keep them properly dressed at the tips.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  43. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham - by chance, I discovered the technique you describe an hour or so ago when I last re-wound the movement. I'm afraid I don't have said brass nor bronze tweezers - I resorted, yet again to my endless supply of toothpicks :). However, I can imagine that I run the risk of tiny fragments of wood fibre being left behind ... so I will add brass/bronze tweezers to my lengthening list of items to acquire.

    With the last wind I reached ~three grooves from the top of the fusee, so I don't need to move the last coils on the barrel any lower, they will be reasonably closely aligned with the upper fusee grooves. However, I have now reached the overlapping coils on the barrel, so I decided to leave those for a new day ...

    John
     
  44. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I am pleased to report that the movement successfully ran to the end of yesterday's 3/4 wind. I have just wound the movement until the fusee stop was activated. During the wind the overlapping coil was taken up and one complete coil remains on the barrel, so my fear that the chain might be too long was unfounded. I will allow the movement to wind down and then I will continue with the re-assembly.

    John
     
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  45. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Excellent news!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  46. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    The movement ran to the end of the first complete wind successfully. Yesterday evening I completed the rebuild and installed the movement in its pair cases. I have mounted the original hands with the short minute hand - I will replace it if I find a suitable one in the future.

    20181124 001.jpg 20181124 002.jpg 20181124 003.jpg 20181124 004.jpg

    After one 'false start' in the dial up position, it has run overnight. I was mistaken when I thought it was running fast. It is in fact running slow. It has lost approximately 20 minutes in 12 hours. I will allow it to completely unwind and adjust the regulator - I am not worried if I cannot bring it to time, but I will investigate the extent to which I can improve the time-keeping with the regulator

    John
     
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  47. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    It may just be a matter of pinning the balance spring shorter in the stud and then adjusting the beat accordingly. You can gain an idea of how much it needs to be shortened by looking at the position of the regulator index pins/slot when you've moved it to bring it closer to time. Losing 40 minutes in a day suggests that it could be shortened significantly.

    The minute hand would have had an arrow head similar to the hour hand; very elegant!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  48. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    Well done John.
    I also have a watch signed Richard Haywood. Serial number 9979 and cased by the same casemaker that dates to 1795.
    DSCF0057.JPG DSCF0060.JPG DSCF0058.JPG
    Nick
     
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  49. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Rather than replace the hand it would be nice to have a new end made for it. I like the arrowheads.
     
  50. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Nick - Snap, so do I - an arrowhead is definitely what is needed.

    John
     

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