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1780 dutch stool clock

FredWJensen107

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Mar 24, 2019
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was running then all of a sudden, sproket gear with chain need excessive force to allow clock to run. Chain will jump down several links every so often.
When I received the clock I was able to get it running with very little adjusting. It ran strong. Then I attempted to set the hourly ringing by removing the hands to jive with the ringing. That is when the problems started. Thought maybe created too much pressure on the wheels. Removed the hands and made sure nothing was binding but still has the problem.

dealer_daniellaurenantiques_superhighres_1613656330074-5110899547.jpg
 
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shutterbug

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The movement looks pretty clean - did you do anything else to it? The chain does look suspicious. How do the links match up with the sprocket teeth? Is the chain jumping teeth, or is the sprocket turning? If the latter, is the rest of the train also spinning?
The clock looks good. What type of pendulum is it swinging? Looks Morbier.
 

FredWJensen107

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The movement looks pretty clean - did you do anything else to it? The chain does look suspicious. How do the links match up with the sprocket teeth? Is the chain jumping teeth, or is the sprocket turning? If the latter, is the rest of the train also spinning?
The clock looks good. What type of pendulum is it swinging? Looks Morbier.
no.
I only did what I already reported.
I will check the teeth....I don't notice the sproket turning, loose. It seemed to be attacked to the wheel. Either the teeth are bad or the chain is bad?
 

FredWJensen107

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no.
I only did what I already reported.
I will check the teeth....I don't notice the sproket turning, loose. It seemed to be attacked to the wheel. Either the teeth are bad or the chain is bad?
I originally had the clock running without a pendulum, just to make sure the weight was enough. Then I put the original pendulus on and is was running great but a little fat so I lengthened the pendulum about and inch and slow the clock movement.
So I guess I did something additional like lengthing the pendulum.
 

FredWJensen107

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This movement has 2 sproket wheels on of them has loose sproket portion. Do these usually snap on or on an old movement could it just be sheared off and needs to be replaced?
 

FredWJensen107

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upon closer inspection, there is nothing wrong with this rachet. It turns freely in only one direction and locks in the other to provide tension.
 

FredWJensen107

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Good news. I soaked the movement in clock cleaner without ammonia..Ammonia can damage movements. Soaked for 6 hours the residue was major in the bottom of the cleaner. bucket. Rised the movement and dries with hair dryer. Then oiled with Nano oil.
Still would not work. Moved the stool clock stand slightly to the left and it began running.
I think the cleaning did it. Because I had tried to level it before and could not get it to run. Well it is running again. I guess a 240 year old clock needed a bath.
 

shutterbug

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It probably needs more than just cleaning, but as long as it's running, you might as well enjoy it for as long as you can. FWIW, nano oil has not proved to be reliable in the long run. Most of us no longer use it.
 

FredWJensen107

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It probably needs more than just cleaning, but as long as it's running, you might as well enjoy it for as long as you can. FWIW, nano oil has not proved to be reliable in the long run. Most of us no longer use it.
This clock is very sensitive to level orientation. With the wood wall mount and 4 stool legs leveling can easily be off and then it won't run. Maybe it would be a good idea to replace the chain although it does not look distorted. As far as running perfectly, I am not too worried about perfection. I may check each wheel for any excessive play.
 

FredWJensen107

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It probably needs more than just cleaning, but as long as it's running, you might as well enjoy it for as long as you can. FWIW, nano oil has not proved to be reliable in the long run. Most of us no longer use it.
Sometimes doing less is better than overdoing it. Nanooil is crap? The concept seems sound. I found that many conventional clock and watch oils usually are shipped beyond their shelf life and you receive oils that become like glue sone after application. Just like conventional watch and clock cleaning solutions are crap. Naphta is the only sound cleaner.
 

shutterbug

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Yeah, the nano concept was that the particles would adhere to the metal so the base oil was no longer needed. So it evaporates quickly by design, but the nano particles do not function as hoped and the clock is forced to run dry. Most of us now use only synthetic clock oil, and many have had good success with very thin synthetic motor oils like Mobil One.
 

FredWJensen107

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Yeah, the nano concept was that the particles would adhere to the metal so the base oil was no longer needed. So it evaporates quickly by design, but the nano particles do not function as hoped and the clock is forced to run dry. Most of us now use only synthetic clock oil, and many have had good success with very thin synthetic motor oils like Mobil One.
I will have to try the mobile one oil. What grade number do they use for clocks, thinnest oil. The marketplace for watch and clock oils has become a real nightmare. Many of these oils sold have sat on the shelf for years and have come very gooey almost like glue.
 

FredWJensen107

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I will have to try the mobile one oil. What grade number do they use for clocks, thinnest oil. The marketplace for watch and clock oils has become a real nightmare. Many of these oils sold have sat on the shelf for years and have come very gooey almost like glue.
it seems that oils are always a problem. I have any original 1933 ford and have to use non-detergent oil in the engine. In an old unrestored engine, regular detergent oil can do too good a job of cleaning and actually open up crevices and cracks that are sealed with 70 years gunk. Strange stuff, imagine too clean can cause engine failure. I imagine the same thing is NOT true for antique timepieces but just wanted to add some iinformation.
 

FredWJensen107

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it seems that oils are always a problem. I have any original 1933 ford and have to use non-detergent oil in the engine. In an old unrestored engine, regular detergent oil can do too good a job of cleaning and actually open up crevices and cracks that are sealed with 70 years gunk. Strange stuff, imagine too clean can cause engine failure. I imagine the same thing is NOT true for antique timepieces but just wanted to add some iinformation.
Is the oil Mobil 1™ 0W-16?
 

shutterbug

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I can't remember for sure, but it's the thinnest one they make. 0w-20 comes to mind.
 

Simon Holt

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I seem to remember the second number is the viscosity when hot, so only the first number (viscosity at room temperature) matters for clocks. So 0w-anything is fine.

Simon
 

FredWJensen107

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My original weight was lost in shipping.
I bought a replacement antique weight for this clock that had the same measurements and approximate weight, The seller packed the original weight poorly and It worked it's way out of the box during shipping, But told me the weight was 2 or 3 lbs. So that and the size of the weight in the photos were all that I had to go on. I purchased the replacement weight antique weight from a shop that sells Dutch clock parts in holland. How can I know that I am using the right weight mass? Maybe the original weight was slightly heavy and the increase in weight is just enough to get the clock running and striking.
 
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FredWJensen107

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Got the clock running.
But Trying to adjust running speed. It is running fast. I lowered the pendulum as low as it can go, still running 1/2 hour too fast. What other adjustment can be made to lower the speed?
 

Mike Phelan

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Might be a silly question, but as it's a verge escapement, is it skipping teeth, or just one tooth, at all? I don't think that oil viscosity will make much difference but the weight might.
 

FredWJensen107

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Might be a silly question, but as it's a verge escapement, is it skipping teeth, or just one tooth, at all? I don't think that oil viscosity will make much difference but the weight might.
I will check about the verge. Good insight. I am using synthetic motor oil of the lowest viscosity. almost like water...
 

FredWJensen107

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I increased the length of the pendulum wire and now the clock still gains one hour per day.
I think I will have to lighten the pendulum bob itself? Any suggestions
 

Ralph

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Did you replace the suspension spring? How thick is it? How long?

Ralph
 

FredWJensen107

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Well, scratch that idea. Do you think the pendulum is original to the clock? Is it modified?

Ralph
It looks original to the clock. Crude old hook on the top end and Pendulum bob with class and screw tightened. Old eyelet for the verge leader...Nothing looks out of place. I was thinking of raising up the attachment for that wire spring but I will wait a while to see if anyone has any ideas. It is hard on these very old clocks......you have to find a real seasoned expert, None of these new self-proclaimed clock repair people. They Buy a pair of needle-nose pliers and a screwdriver and they consider themselves experts.
 

FredWJensen107

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It looks original to the clock. Crude old hook on the top end and Pendulum bob with class and screw tightened. Old eyelet for the verge leader...Nothing looks out of place. I was thinking of raising up the attachment for that wire spring but I will wait a while to see if anyone has any ideas. It is hard on these very old clocks......you have to find a real seasoned expert, None of these new self-proclaimed clock repair people. They Buy a pair of needle-nose pliers and a screwdriver and they consider themselves experts.
Found this on ebay..called a bril?
Never heard of this
 

shutterbug

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It doesn't look original to me. Too crudely twisted and probably not well balanced. It may or may not be affecting the timing though. You will have to increase the overall length of the pendulum somehow. Either at the top or at the bottom. And be sure there is no roughness either in the upper loops or the hooks where it attaches.
 

FredWJensen107

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There is about 2 inches of room to move the hook up for the pendulum rod. I will do that. Funny, but my bril is not twisted but is off-center, seems to be designed that way. My bril is not twisted, sounds almost psychological.
 
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FredWJensen107

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actually, the bril for sale is shorter by an inch or so from mine and I will order that and see if that gives me the extra slowing power after I again increase the pendulum staff. Rather do this Than move the case hook.
 

FredWJensen107

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I am thinking of making a new bril. Shorter of course. But I have to find proper wire. Must be springy and rigid not the usually wires around for household items.
 

Ralph

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You could calculate the period needed, to get an idea of the correct length you’re shooting for.

How about a picture of your pendulum?

Ralph
 

FredWJensen107

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You could calculate the period needed, to get an idea of the correct length you’re shooting for.

How about a picture of your pendulum?

Ralph
My pendulum is exactly like this one
 

RJSoftware

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The weight of bob is not relevant to time keeping. A heavier bob does not go slower and vice versa. Neither is a thicker suspension spring or vice versa a timing solution. Besides this suspension free swings like a cuckoo does. No metal strips flex.

It is the timing of the impulse that keeps a pendulum moving and it is the distance of the pendulum's center of mass that determines the rate of escapement.

I tend to think of these clocks much the same as wag wall/free swingers. Crown wheel or not.

With unlimited room below you can make a test pendulum with coat hanger wire and most any bob. This would give you genera idea.

Sometimes, on these, people hook pendulum to wrong spot. Because its a bit awkward hanging the pendulum.
 

FredWJensen107

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I don't have unlimited room. This is a stool clock and the movement sits on legs on a small ledge. I do have 2 inches more where I can move the hook from the case up that attaches to the Bril, so I will go there and try that. Thanks for your comments, and help. I will keep you posted.
PS I never expected this old clock to run perfectly and am thankful that it runs at all.
 

Ralph

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FredWJensen107

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Even down to the oval shaped bob?

I just checked one, and the pendulum rod is 390mm and to the hanger loop, 430mm.


Ralph
Yes, oval-shaped.
I ordered that shorted Bril , I will try that and lengthen the pendulum rod also and see if it works. Otherwise, I will have to raise the hook in the case.
The bril on my clock looks to long and thin, but maybe the thicker, shorter on will not function with my movement.
 

Ralph

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Yes, oval-shaped.
I ordered that shorted Bril , I will try that and lengthen the pendulum rod also and see if it works. Otherwise, I will have to raise the hook in the case.
The bril on my clock looks to long and thin, but maybe the thicker, shorter on will not function with my movement.
Mine is thin and thin would be better, so the mass is more concentrated at the bob. The oval bob will also help.

Thinking outside the box, is the pendulum swinging at the loops of the bril? The pendulum isn't trying to swing where it hooks onto the bril, effectively shortening the pendulum. The bril and the pendulum rod should behave as one continuous rod.

Ralph
 

FredWJensen107

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Mine is thin and thin would be better, so the mass is more concentrated at the bob. The oval bob will also help.

Thinking outside the box, is the pendulum swinging at the loops of the bril? The pendulum isn't trying to swing where it hooks onto the bril, effectively shortening the pendulum. The bril and the pendulum rod should behave as one continuous rod.

Ralph
The bril and rod appear as one unit and the motion is at the double rings through the hook.
 

RJSoftware

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The length of the pendulum starts at the suspension point and goes to whatever is lower bob or rod. The crutch, the device that pushes pendulum should push from somewhere near top portion of pendulum.

The rigged wire bril (never knew name -thanks) is part of pendulum length. Length starts right where bril attaches to post. So oddly a shorter bril equates to shorter pendulum.

You said it run at one point, did it keep accurate time? Some people see running clock and to them, hey it's working. Others expect less than 2 minutes a month accuracy.

On a similar clock of mine the clock sits on wood shelf. Mine has additional hole for pendulum to extend below shelf. That hole is oblong oval. My clock is similar in design but has nearly 2 ft long pendulum.

An inch or so lower might be enough adjustment. The bob is the major portion of the pendulum mass the weight of rod and bril contributes some but negligible. A test pendulum, thin wire like bailing wire, can help determine what pendulum length is required.
 

Uhralt

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actually, the bril for sale is shorter by an inch or so from mine and I will order that and see if that gives me the extra slowing power after I again increase the pendulum staff. Rather do this Than move the case hook.
The rate of the clock is determined by the total length of the pendulum, including the bril, down to the center of the bob. Using a shorter bril and lengthening the rod the same amount will not change the total length and will have no effect on time keeping.

Uhralt
 

FredWJensen107

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The shorter "and thicker" brill arrived and it does not allow the pendulum to swing the same as the old much thinner brill. I will have to move the hook ''up on the back of the case and use the originally thiner and more flexible brill. Let you know how I make out.
 

FredWJensen107

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I am moving the hook for the pendulum. It is a primitive hook with crude formed flat spike to wedge into the back board. I will drill and glue it I am afraid that the backboard is aged and brittle and would split if I attempted to hammer the hook in.
I will let you know in a week after I let lengthen the pendulum again.
I have another question.
The original painted mermaid figures. Is there a method to bring out the brilliance of these original paintings. I guess soap and water is the safest? But is there an acceptable wash that brings out of colors in antique paintings?
 

shutterbug

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Before using water, test a small section to be sure it isn't water based paint. That would sure mess things up.
 

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