14k pocket watch value

[edteach]

At a local jewelry store I ran across a 14k gold watch. Its been serviced and was weighed in at 37 grams for the case weight. The watch is 21 jewels, not sure the maker. He said but I don't recall. I checked and gold melt value is 1350. He is asking 1200. I did not have my glasses so I can not recall much. I was thinking of going back and making an offer. The case was a Keystone. Any advice on what to look out for on a purchase like this? I could take photos and post them here before making an offer, that may be the best bet.

 

[MrRoundel]

First and foremost is to make sure that the case is one of Keystone's solid cases. I think they made a lot more that were gold-filled. But they did indeed make solid karat cases. So verify the hallmark. Bear in mind that there is some amount of non-gold parts used in cases, especially in hunter cases. You'll have to deduct for spring weights, crystal weight, stem weight, probably crown weight, etc. If the one you're talking about is a hunter, I'd guess it has a bit less than $1,100 at scrap price. But that is, of course, a guess.

Then comes the movement, of which we have no idea other than the stated jewel count. An image of the movement and hallmark might help someone be of help to you.

 

[Appa69]

The biggest question, to me, is do you like the watch?

 

[ghce]

He who hesitates is lost.
Regret is one of the downsides of hesitancy.
If it's a solid gold 14 K case and if it's a keystone case chances are very high that's it's a US watch, if it's 21 jewels and in a 14K solid case it isn't a clunker.

 

[Bryan Eyring]

What is there to discuss? You're being presented with the opportunity to buy for less than intrinsic value - this should be a no brainer.

 

[edteach]

I was going to head over today bu they are closed till Thursday. So while I wait to go can you guys tell me what to look out for in a keystone case to know its gold and not gold filled? I am sure its gold, he had his watch guy service it and was given the information about it. So I am sure its solid 14k but I want to dot the i's and cross the Ts. Thanks for the help.

 

[MrRoundel]

Yes, hesitation when presented with great deals can bring disappointment when the guy behind you doesn't hesitate and you lose your chance. Maybe they had deeper knowledge than you. Or maybe they were bigger gamblers.

And sometimes one has learned lessons in their life that makes them hesitate in putting their hand in the flame again. I, for one, would be extra careful when thinking a jeweler is letting a watch go for less than scrap value. With their likely easy access to scrappers, scrap estimations, and precision scales, one must wonder why they want to make less money than they could. Perhaps they like your smile? Maybe you have a longer term business relationship with them and they're happy with their margin, despite leaving money on "the table"? Then again, something may not be as it seems, or is as being presented.

I believe asking these questions here is a good move. But yes, there is some risk that someone will buy it while you're gathering info and thinking about it. All that said, images of the watch would speak volumes about what one more knowledgeable in watches might do.

 

[MrRoundel]

This might come in handy:

Keystone

 

[musicguy]

I, for one, would be extra careful when thinking a jeweler is letting a watch go for less than scrap value.

I agree.


Rob

 

[Appa69]

There are some who will sell for better prices to people who they know won't scrap. I've been fortunate to have been on the receiving end of some. I recently purchased a U.S.Steel 50 year service 14k medal that was 7/8 ozt for ~$700. Caution is good, but be educated enough that you don't miss small windows of opportunity.

 

[Bryan Eyring]

There are some who will sell for better prices to people who they know won't scrap. I've been fortunate to have been on the receiving end of some. I recently purchased a U.S.Steel 50 year service 14k medal that was 7/8 ozt for ~$700. Caution is good, but be educated enough that you don't miss small windows of opportunity.

Agreed. I and other moderators of present and past here have frequently purchased from jewelers for less than scrap.
It happens everyday....

 

[edteach]

I doubt it will sell. Its marked 1800 dollars and I was the only one in the shop at the time. Its been there for a while from what he said. Anything is possible but I would rather lose a deal than buy a pig in a poke. I have bought things on my CC that if it was a fake or not what it was said to be I can dispute the charge if the seller is not honost about it. But I was going to offer 1100 cash in 100 dollar bills. I have no recourse so it has to be what its supposed to be.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

One should keep in mind that no one is going to pay full scrap for a case. Therefore, the 'melt value' is largely theoretical. The real value is what someone, including a gold scrapper, is willing to pay for the item. If this jeweler is just a seller and does not use the gold himself, he would be in the same boat of not getting full melt for the case. That may be his motivation for offering the watch to you for less than scrap. Perhaps that is still more than he could get if he were to scrap the case.

 

[musicguy]

If I were in the same situation, I am person who is not looking to buy watches
with the intent to sell them(or turn them over).
The watch in question would need to have a movement
inside that I want for my own collection(something I don't have and want),
or thew case would need
to be one that I really liked and wanted. Some members here are
both collectors and sellers. These folks are always looking
for a good deal, and this may be one of those situations.


I do agree with what Dave said above.



Rob

 

[Bryan Eyring]

One should keep in mind that no one is going to pay full scrap for a case. Therefore, the 'melt value' is largely theoretical. The real value is what someone, including a gold scrapper, is willing to pay for the item. If this jeweler is just a seller and does not use the gold himself, he would be in the same boat of not getting full melt for the case. That may be his motivation for offering the watch to you for less than scrap. Perhaps that is still more than he could get if he were to scrap the case.

Hi Dave, I'm not following this. At all.

Who is "no one"? Assuming you are referring to scrappers, I know some who will pay full spot (100% of gold value) if they assess the market is at a low point and/or they need volume for a refiner shipment.

The OP stated in the first post that he believes the melt value to be at $1350 and the seller is looking for $1200.
Taking the post at face value would indicate the seller is looking for 89% of spot, a bargain to any scrapper.

Sounds to me like the only thing left for the OP to validate is the legitimacy of the hallmark at this time...

 

[Bryan Eyring]

I doubt it will sell. Its marked 1800 dollars and I was the only one in the shop at the time. Its been there for a while from what he said. Anything is possible but I would rather lose a deal than buy a pig in a poke. I have bought things on my CC that if it was a fake or not what it was said to be I can dispute the charge if the seller is not honost about it. But I was going to offer 1100 cash in 100 dollar bills. I have no recourse so it has to be what its supposed to be.

Good luck and feel free to text a pic of the hallmark to me at 440-655-0075 if you'd like assistance prior to purchasing, happy to help. After 30 years I can validate just about any pocket watch hallmark....

 

[edteach]

I was out and about with just my sun glasses yesterday. I did not have my specks with me. My eye sight is not the 2020 is used to be. I want to take a good look at it. Its is a hunter case. From what I can find a Keystone that is all gold not plate will not have any Guarantee but only a 14k. I may also see if he will let me take photos of it to post here before I buy. I have no intention of selling but value is value. I don't want to pay 1200 for a watch that is worth only 700. But if the value is there that is fine. He also said he had considered scrapping the gold. Which I was appalled at. To scrap out a antique case for scrap gold is disgusting IMO.

 

[edteach]

Good luck and feel free to text a pic of the hallmark to me at 440-655-0075 if you'd like assistance prior to purchasing, happy to help. After 30 years I can validate just about any pocket watch hallmark....

Thanks I will take your phone number and text you when I go. He is open on Thursday but I may not make it till Sunday. There is a huge flea market that comes twice a year and I have a booth. I bring all my Etsy items and set up. I repair antique fans and other items and sell them at the fair. That is set up on Thursday and open Friday and Sat. So Sunday may be the day. But my wife who is taking off work to help has a closing on Thursday. So I may make a run over while she is doing her closing and look at it on Thursday. The store is in a town about 30 miles away.

 

[MrRoundel]

You might also consider using the utility on PWDB for case trademarks. Choose "Keystone" in the manufacturer/company window. Then enter whatever it says in addition to that. I chose "Keystone" and followed with "14K" for other markings and it brought up ~1/2 dozen different marks you might see. Good luck.
PWDB Case Mark Tool

 

[ghce]

I would opt for the Thursday, either that or ring the gentleman in question and get him to put a hold on it till you can make it over to the shop and see it.
As you say if its 14 K solid it will say just that 14K, if it's plated or rolled it would be explicitly stated on the case.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

At a local jewelry store I ran across a 14k gold watch. Its been serviced and was weighed in at 37 grams for the case weight. The watch is 21 jewels, not sure the maker. He said but I don't recall. I checked and gold melt value is 1350. He is asking 1200. I did not have my glasses so I can not recall much. I was thinking of going back and making an offer. The case was a Keystone. Any advice on what to look out for on a purchase like this? I could take photos and post them here before making an offer, that may be the best bet.

At today's price 37 grams of 14k is $1358. BUT, does 37 grams include the stem, crown, sleeve, crystal, bow (some are gold, some aren't), hinge pins? And depending on who made it and when, 14K might translate to 13.5K or even less (e. g. 12K).

For me personally, $1200 is a lot of cash to spend on maybe $1358 worth of gold. There are many many watches in the $200-$500 range that I can buy for their collectible value that have little or no gold in them. But that's my opinion.

 

[Kent]

... So verify the hallmark. ...

... I can validate just about any pocket watch hallmark....

I believe that you meant to write "trade mark." The word "hallmark" has no legal meaning when applied to precious metal in the U.S.

 

[edteach]

What I will do is take good pictures and post them. If I miss a good deal I miss a good deal. when ever I rush into some deal it usually does not turn out as well as I had hoped.

 

[Jon Hanson]

When not knowing something the second best thing is to know which person to ask; and, if successful, give them something for their expertise.

Jon

 

[musicguy]

give them something for their expertise.

It's nice that we have this NAWCC forum to let people with
experience freely give their knowledge.


Rob

 

[edteach]

It helps keep the hobby going.

 

[Bryan Eyring]

I believe that you meant to write "trade mark." The word "hallmark" has no legal meaning when applied to precious metal in the U.S.

If one wants to get hung up on semantics, sure.

Very few individuals, particularly those in the gold trade, refer to case markings as trademarks.

Colloquially, we just refer to these as hallmarks.

Rather than nitpick can we focus on helping the OP??

 

[musicguy]

If one wants to get hung up on semantics, sure.

Very few individuals, particularly those in the gold trade, refer to case markings as trademarks.

Colloquially, we just refer to these as hallmarks.

Rather than nitpick can we focus on helping the OP??

I think it's all good, and I do believe edteach is on the right track
to decide what he wants to do. Speaking colloquially is absolutely fine, but
being the NAWCC American Pocket Watch forum we also try very hard
to use the correct terms as well. This keeps historical consistency in the long run.


Rob

 

[Bryan Eyring]

When not knowing something the second best thing is to know which person to ask; and, if successful, give them something for their expertise.

Jon

Spot on!

 

[edteach]

I have been really busy and finally got a chance to go back to the store. Here are pictures of the watch. Its an Illinois Getty 21 jewel in a 14k Keystone case. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[ghce]

I have been really busy and finally got a chance to go back to the store. Here are pictures of the watch. Its an Illinois Getty 21 jewel in a 14k Keystone case. Let me know what you guys think. View attachment 765973 View attachment 765974 View attachment 765975 View attachment 765977 View attachment 765979 View attachment 765976 View attachment 765978

We're it me I wouldn't hesitate, it may not be a railroad grade but it certainly is a very high grade movement in a 14 K solid gold case.
I am amazed it's still in the shop, if I saw it I can guarantee it would be going home with me on first sight.

Illinois Pocket Watch: Serial Number 2287394 (Grade 174)

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[edteach]

What would you pay for it. It was offered to me for 1200.

 

[ghce]

What would you pay for it. It was offered to me for 1200.

Every one likes a bargain and at that price I think it is but it wouldn't stop me offering less, how much less would be up to the interaction between your seller and you.
One avenue is to look at eBay for similar prices but I would expect probably a doubling of price in that instance given the nature of the solid gold case.

 

[ghce]

Another thing to consider is that at his price the intrinsic value of the purchase is assured in its scrap value which will in time rise even higher.
In effect you are not spending any money at all, rather just investing in a fast and high rising extremely safe asset which will not ever loose value.

 

[musicguy]

in a fast and high rising extremely safe asset which will not ever loose value.

be careful with your advice.


Rob

 

[Bryan Eyring]

If you can negotiate it for less, great - otherwise grab it!

Twelve fresh $100 bills would already be out of my pocket!!

 

[Bryan Eyring]

Another thing to consider is that at his price the intrinsic value of the purchase is assured in its scrap value which will in time rise even higher.
In effect you are not spending any money at all, rather just investing in a fast and high rising extremely safe asset which will not ever loose value.

Spot on - already priced below melt

 

[edteach]

Well you guys are selling me on this watch. It was serviced. He is a business so he does take credit cards. So Cash 100 dollar bills goes a long way on that amount. I am thinking I will go for it today.

 

[Bryan Eyring]

Good luck!

 

[MrRoundel]

As all have mentioned, it is the real deal. It has trademarks and purity marks that are as good as one could hope for. And just as importantly, it contains a very nice movement with what looks like a perfect double-sunk dial. That's a watch that has been well cared for and it'll be great if you could get your hands on it to enjoy and save from the scrappers. I think you're very safe on paying what the jeweler's asking.

Oh, and while you're at the jeweler's picking up that watch, you might want to verify that it runs in different positions, i.e. dial up/down, pendant up/down. And you might want to do it rather inconspicuously as you are just looking it over. Regardless, it seems quite obvious that this watch has been well cared for. Ideally, as a collector, those are the ones you want. Good luck!

 

[edteach]

The jewelry store owner said that his watch maker who serviced it said he removed all the things not gold but for what he called the "ribbing". He said the watch maker had the same size watch he had the "ribbing" out of and weighed that to deduct it form the over all weight to get an accurate gold weight. Today's gold spot shows melt 37 grams of 14k is 1350 give or take a few dollars. So at 1200 its less than melt, plus a high end movement.

 

[MrRoundel]

The jewelry store owner said that his watch maker who serviced it said he removed all the things not gold but for what he called the "ribbing". He said the watch maker had the same size watch he had the "ribbing" out of and weighed that to deduct it form the over all weight to get an accurate gold weight. Today's gold spot shows melt 37 grams of 14k is 1350 give or take a few dollars. So at 1200 its less than melt, plus a high end movement.

Hence the advice not to wait very long. Grab it and run! After paying for it, of course.

I should note that the website I use for scrap value is Kitco.com. Under their table for 14K scrap value they show $30.90 per gram. That comes out to a bit less than $1200, FWIW. (Following smiley couldn't be removed for some reason. It was meant to be after the first paragraph.) Cheers.

 

[edteach]

I just did Kitco and used the 14k scrap. Its 1360. I bought the watch. He would not come down but I talked him into throwing in the watch chain. Not gold but plated.

 

[musicguy]

Enjoy the watch.


Rob

 

[Appa69]

Congrats!

 

[grtnev]

At today's price 37 grams of 14k is $1358. BUT, does 37 grams include the stem, crown, sleeve, crystal, bow (some are gold, some aren't), hinge pins? And depending on who made it and when, 14K might translate to 13.5K or even less (e. g. 12K).

I’m conservative when it comes to trying to evaluate the actual karat gold content in a case. The stated Hunter case weight is 37 grams which includes the crystal, crown, bow, case inner metal frame, front cover hinge, spring. These pieces easily can total 10-15% of the total case weight or 3.7 to 5.5 grams.

37 - 3.7 = 33.3 grams of 14K or $1224

37 - 5.5 = 31.5 grams of 14K or $1158.

…..at today’s gold prices.

Very nice watch - enjoy it!

Richard

 

[edteach]

From what I was told by the seller, his watch maker who went though the watch removed everything and what he did not he weighed similar items to deduct it from the weight. So according to him its 37 grams or close to gold weight. I am not saying its written in stone, but I have no reason to think he is pushing the gold weight. I can remove the movement and weigh the case without out the movement. That would tell me more of what the gold weight is. If its over 37 grams then I know he was telling me the truth.

 

[MrRoundel]

Personally, I wouldn't even bother with removing the movement, especially if I wasn't experienced in such things (Disregard if you are.). Since it's a hunter case, I think it's more likely that it weighs more, rather than less. The movement weighs what should be very close to 52 grams. I weighed a Getty that I have, after verifying my scale weighs 3 grams short (Used coin of known weight.), and the Getty weighed 52 grams after adjusting.

It's interesting about Kitco. They have a few different ways of figuring scrap value, but I think all of them come with the caveat that they don't pay these prices to non-business customers. The chart I use still shows $30.90 per gram for 14K gold, where your calculator uses ~$36.75. I think that calculator just takes the spot price and divides it by the grams in a troy ounce. This may be handy, but one would be hard- pressed to get that from a scrapper, or anyone who dares to get close enough to feed them. There are melting, assaying, etc. costs that have to be allowed for.

Regardless, like grtnev, I think that conservative is probably the best route. No matter what, I think you've paid less than retail. From what I see, you should feel good about that purchase. Enjoy!