12-size Waltham evolution (briefly)

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Jerry Treiman, Feb 14, 2002.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    5,999
    854
    113
    Geologist - California Geological Survey
    Los Angeles, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Since there were clearly no 12-size railroad watches (although several may have met the accuracy standards), can this discussion be moved elsewhere?
     
  2. camtwo69

    camtwo69 Registered User

    Apr 15, 2017
    14
    1
    3
    Male
    Sales
    Hampton Va
    Country Flag:
    I picked up a Waltham 12S model 1894 grade 220 with the serial # 25054392 . 15 jewel open face watch

    The dial says Waltham American Gentleman

    I can not find any info on a American Gentleman ? Has anyone herd that name before ?
     
  3. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    And now returning to my previous theme -
    Another common grade, the "Waltham ADJUSTED". Well, it says ADJUSTED where the grade name should be (with the "17 Jewels" bit stamped just off to the side) so that's what I think it should be called.
    Officially, it's a grade 235... https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/22203045
    This new arrival is in my repairs queue.
    It also set a new all-time record for most obstinacy in trying not to allow me to get a clear photograph of it.
    Does anyone have a model 1894 in grades 237, 238, Equity, Riverside Maximus, B&K, or AWCo they could share with us here?

    311260.jpg 311261.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Here's a model 1894 Riv Max and dial ...
    311273.jpg 311274.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
    NAWCC Gold Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    1,787
    544
    113
    Pasadena
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Dave, is your dial really a correct Maximus dial? All the Riverside Maximus watches I have have a unique style of dial, except for the last watch discussed below. Except for that one: All have enamel dials. All but one are double-sunk. All have red Arabic minutes at each 5-minute marker. All have a identical script Waltham signature on the dial, a signature very like the one on your dial, but more upright, not slanting to the right as on your dial. The Arabic hour numerals on all my dials are identical and upright, unlike the more stylish slanting (Breguet?) numbers on your watch.

    In contrast, your dial has a slightly different signature, lacks red 5-minute markings, looks like a painted metal dial, and has Breguet-ish Arabic numbers.

    Here are the dials on my RM's:

    1. 1888 Riverside Maximus OF (made in 1899) -- Double sunk enamel with Roman numerals.
    2. 1888 Riverside Maximus Hunter (made in 1899) -- Same as 1. except it also says "A.W.W.Co." above the sub-seconds dial
    3. 1890 Riverside Maximus Hunter (made in 1896)-- Same as 2
    4. 1894 Riverside Maximus OF (made in 1903)-- Double sunk enamel with Arabic numerals
    5. 1894 Riverside Maximus OF (made in 1908)-- Same as 4
    6. 1894 Riverside Maximus OF (made in 1896) -- Same as 4 except it also says "A.W.W.Co." above the sub-seconds dial
    7. 1899 Riverside Maximus OF (made in 1902)-- Same as 4
    8. 1899 Riverside Maximus OF (made in 1902) -- Same as 4 except single sunk

    I also have an 1894 Riverside Maximus dating to 1908 with an entirely different style of dial, a lovely double-sunk enamel dial with stylish bold Roman numerals. It definitely isn't a Riverside Maximus-style dial, but I have not replaced it with one because it likely is original as it has been seen on at least one other 1894 RM with a serial number less than 300 numbers distant.
     
  6. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Ethan, I can't say for sure - I can only say it's what was on it when I got it! :)
     
  7. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Ethan, I will point out that this one is fairly late (1915 or so) relative to all of your listed examples, and the Gray book says it should be 19 jewels instead of 23, and the 19 jewel versions of the Riv Max are seen in ads with 3/4 plates instead of bridge / semi-bridge layouts around the time this one was made ... :confused:

    Maybe Kent has seen something in the serial number list observations for these?
     
  8. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    5,999
    854
    113
    Geologist - California Geological Survey
    Los Angeles, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Dave - I have recorded two other examples from your run and they both had 23 jewels; the 19-jewel notation must be an error. (I did not note the dials). Your dial certainly is not typical for a Riverside Maximus, but Waltham started doing all kinds of weird things in their later years. I have seen single-sunk dials with the Maximus-style signature as well as some other number styles. The only exception I can think of to the Maximus signature is on the Colonial Series Maximus which had a fine enamel or gilt dial with a regular signature (some of the enamel dials have an italic signature). It would also be lacking on the Colonial-A models, which had silver dials. The only 19-jewel Maximus I have seen is the 0-size Maximus, which has a 3/4-plate layout.
     
  9. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good news on the grade 225 - it is now cased and running and we've sorted the hands out.
    Here we see it wearing a rather lovely pair of fun & funky dual time zone hour hands. Recommended.

    DSCN7694.JPG
     
  10. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    And next up -

    Waltham Pocket Watch Information: Serial Number 25027242 (Grade Premier)

    This is from a mixed run of grades "Premier" and "No 239". It doesn't say "Premier" on it anywhere (and it doesn't have the checkerboard pattern and it isn't 2-tone) therefore I believe this to be a grade 239.
    Bought as a still-running orphan. Recased (and minute hand added) by me.

    DSCN7818.JPG DSCN7819.JPG
     
  11. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 12, 2017
    4,230
    1,758
    113
    New York State
    Country Flag:
  12. rolandantrobus

    rolandantrobus Registered User

    May 17, 2016
    419
    77
    28
    Country Flag:
    #62 rolandantrobus, Apr 22, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
    Hello topspin
    I don't like to nitpick but shouldn't the minute hands from the grade 225 and the 239 be swapped the other way round? The two "Breguet" style hands look like a set to me.
     
  13. johnnypocket

    johnnypocket Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 29, 2017
    126
    166
    43
    Male
    Semi-retired.
    Long Island, N.Y.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This thread was started many years ago, and I am very appreciative as a new collector for both the new information added, as well as not starting a new one but adding on to the existing one.This allows for a easy flow of information as a learning tool. Waltham 12S seems to be abundant and affordable and hence a watch that many , myself included, new collectors gravitate to. This board, as well as the NAWCC, have been a great choice to learning more about this great hobby and as this thread has done, making wise educated choices. Thanks all.
     
    musicguy likes this.
  14. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    5,999
    854
    113
    Geologist - California Geological Survey
    Los Angeles, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the compliments (to me and all the other participants)! I am still predominantly a 12-size collector and never tire of the variety. I am always happy to try to answer questions, especially from newer collectors.
     
    johnnypocket likes this.
  15. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Next up - the grade 1217. Not commonly found here in UK. This one is from the first run (of 4 large runs, all in around 1935.)
    Just back from service and running nicely.
    Perhaps its most distinctive feature is the plain regulator. One might say that this is a bit of a surprise to find on a 17J grade?

    Waltham Pocket Watch Information: Serial Number 28747500 (Grade No. 1217)

    DSCN7852.JPG DSCN7851.JPG
     
  16. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  17. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,786
    1,292
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    According to the gray book record, there are a total of 9,700 in the 12 size Equity model. I don't know what difference there is between the equity model and the 1894 model. Perhaps @Jerry Treiman knows.

    I checked a bit further and there are two runs for a total of 6,000 OF and 3,000 HC that are listed as 1894 model Equity grade.
    upload_2018-9-2_18-49-58.png upload_2018-9-2_18-55-50.png
     
  18. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  19. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    And now for something a fraction more interesting... the B+K grade (Bigelow & Kennard.)
    According to the seller, this one is differs from many others because of the patent click.
    Not sure how many were made - this one being recorded semi-correctly as a 220, in a run of 24, earlier than the one run of 72 that's known to the lookup NAWCC-Info
    I like the equity stripes.

    DSCN8407.JPG DSCN8408.JPG DSCN8409.JPG DSCN8410.JPG
     
  20. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 12, 2017
    4,230
    1,758
    113
    New York State
    Country Flag:
    Bigelow, Kennard & Co. was a high-end jeweler in Boston, MA
    Bigelow, Kennard & Co.(full thread)

    Here is info on the click that you mention(I can't see from the photo if yours has it)
    Bigelow, Kennard & Co.(click)


    Rob
     
  21. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    5,999
    854
    113
    Geologist - California Geological Survey
    Los Angeles, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #71 Jerry Treiman, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
    Most of Waltham’s contract watches for Bigelow, Kennard & Co. included the special patented recoiling click, as well as a whiplash regulator. The mid-grade models had the striped damaskeening whereas higher grades had circular damaskeening. Waltham made almost 100 grade 220 movements for BK&Co. (as part of more than 335 12-size movements in various grades). All of these originally had enamel dials marked for Bigelow, Kennard & Co.

    [By the way - I have 13,044,127 -- just four away from yours].
     
  22. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    viclip and musicguy like this.
  23. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,786
    1,292
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Congratulations, that is a pretty scarce model with only 200 total production according to the Waltham handwritten ledgers. It is similar to the 14 size Crescent Garden from the same period and I believe both were made for the English market. I am not certain, but I would be surprised if the two were not identical except for plate size.

    This site shows a bit more information. http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php?serial=848838.

    If you use this tool from the NAWCC-Info site NAWCC-Info and enter 1870-% in the model field, it will show all of the runs of this interesting export model.
     
  24. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,306
    89
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Next up - a counterpart to the watch from post #66. This one is the "other" flavour of Equity, found inhabiting a fabulously shiny hunter case. With proper Equity dial.

    DSCN9072.JPG DSCN9071.JPG
     
    viclip likes this.

Share This Page