$100 Sam Ogden. Alnwick.

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by D.th.munroe, Mar 12, 2019.

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  1. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Hi all.
    My mother-in-law picked up this poor Sam Ogden, junior I think, clock for me a while ago for $100 Canadian. All she said was Sam Ogden and square brass dial for 100. and I said "get it!" Lol.
    Case is oak, it's hollow behind the veneer parts on the hood and the top part is cracked and poorly repaired and lacquered, brown yuck on top of the lacquer, light unstained oak underneath, has "windows" on the sides of the hood and a very old sheet of zinc, painted gold on the arch of the door and smells like a smoking lounge.
    Nothing really special about the movement, standard rack strike, 8 day with a G stamped on it.
    Pretty sure it's a marriage, but is it possible it had an arch piece and it was stripped with the spandrels? there is some marks that could indicate that, but I'm doubtful. Any thoughts on that?
    Thanks.
    Dan

    samogden1.jpg samogden2.jpg samogden3.jpg samogden4.jpg
     
  2. NigelW

    NigelW Registered User

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    #2 NigelW, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    I know longcase clocks are good value at the moment but $100!

    The dial looks c. 1730 to me. Loomes lists a "Samuel Ogden (II)" in Alnwick in 1727, so that would seem to fit. At this date a provincial clock is more likely to have a square dial than an arched one I think. In any case the arch would have been integral, not a separate piece. The spandrels are clearly missing but the centre looks oddly plain too. It would be worth having a look at the back of the dial to see if there are any signs to indicate whether the chapter ring and dial started off life together or not.

    On p. 75 of his Clockmakers of Northern England Loomes writes

    "Samuel Ogden I is mentioned in the Yorkshire chapter as he had made clocks near Halifax until 1712 or shortly thereafter, when, impelled perhaps by his wife's recent death, he moved to Benwell, a village just two miles west of Newcastle....At that same time too, his son, Samuel Ogden II moved to Alnwick, a distance of about fifteen miles north of Newcastle....Samuel Ogden did not make clocks in Benwell till after 1712, but is nevertheless a known seventeenth-century maker continuing to work until his death in 1728. Only a handful of Benwell clocks seem to be recorded by him, one of them an eight-day and dated 1727. A watch is also known from the Benwell period.

    Only a single longcase clock seems to have been recorded by Samuel II at Alnwick. After his father's death he may have moved to Newcastle, where a watch is recorded by him."


    The case looks second half of the 18th century. Swan necked pediments weren't used until around the middle of the century and continued to be used into the 19th. If I had to guess I would say this was last quarter of the 18th C, so yes, it looks like a marriage. The next question would be whether the movement started off life with the dial.
     
  3. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Thanks NigelW.
    Was way more than I expected for 100. At the time I thought if it was a marriage or something I probably have a more appropriate dial and movement here.
    Loomes has a page on his website about the Ogdens on which he has a picture of a Samuel Ogden Sr, Benwell with an arch that doesn't look integral to the dial, though it's much fancier, which is what made me think there was a very, very slim chance.
    The center looks like it may have been matted and then ruined/polished.
    It's behind a couple others right now but I'll pull the movement out later and take more pictures of it. I have a feeling it's a later movement. It's behind a few others right now and the wife is sleeping.
    Also now that I think the other one may have had the G stamped on it.
    Dan.
     
  4. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Ok it was the other one with the G. Lol. Now movement pics.

    15523840760122644088154907665040.jpg 15523841060645366858741066183731.jpg 15523843495227942654275479392925.jpg 15523844376705114989783376210768.jpg 1552384499557833444818436322739.jpg
     
  5. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Under the dial

    15523855716963298112456873280901.jpg 15523855974286929657999914275028.jpg 15523856249825569999332333176398.jpg
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    It looks like it has been assembled from bits. The dialplate has an added sheet to the middle, perhaps because it had a different chapter ring and this one does not fit over the cutouts. There was a date function on the original movement, I think the dial feet have been moved to suit this movement though it look like more than once. Removing the added brass sheet in the centre may reveal more clues.
     
  7. NigelW

    NigelW Registered User

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    Handsome movement but the pillar style suggests late rather than early 18th C to me. It clearly had date work at some point (spare hole on front plate centre and a wheel under the snail). The plugged hole at the top of the front plate suggests it started off life with a different dial and the back of the dial indicates that the dial plate itself started off with neither the current chapter ring nor the current movement, the oddly plain centre being the result of the addition of a later piece of brass to cover the old winding and date holes (it would be interesting to see what is underneath if it comes off easily, which I suspect it won't).

    But as you rightly point out, not bad for $100!

    [Later edit: I posted/wrote this just before I saw novice timekeeper's post, so sorry for the repetition]
     
  8. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Thank you both.
    It's too bad its so pieced together, the dial feet are soft soldered on, one just fell off, so yes they have been moved.
    I dont think it will be too hard to take this dial apart, it's actually not held togethether very well. The date square is beveled towards the front though so I'll see if I can remove that plate.
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    The dial plate might be much more attractive without the cover but I don't think the chapter ring will cover the cutouts. You could, perhaps, fit a doughnut of brass like a big washer, so that you can see the original dial plate.
     
  10. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    You were right about it being more attractive without. I may be able to work with this though.

    15523914964868802371980137308186.jpg 15523915128241171045260818349937.jpg
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    you have your work cut out there. You could fit inserts in the winding holes emulating ringed winding holes, though the arbours may not be central. The hole near 8 looks like a lost dial foot that would have been riveted there.
     
  12. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    The ringed inserts was my first thought as well. And yes the hole at the 8 was the soft soldered dial foot that just fell out, the one at the 4 is riveted a bit better, though ugly, but still soft soldered.
    I'm thinking since this movement clearly doesn't go with the the dial, I do have several others without homes, there may be one that fits the dial better.
     
  13. NigelW

    NigelW Registered User

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    That dial centre is gorgeous and looks right for the chapter ring which makes me now think the two may have began life together after all. There are similar dials c. 1720-30 in Loomes Brass Dial Clocks and Clockmakers of Northern England. The seconds dial would not normally cut into the chapter ring, so it most likely was moved upwards to fit the second hand of the later movement.
     
  14. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Yes that notch in the chapter ring may be a hard one to fix, if I put the seconds dial where it should be.
    I'm also wondering if some of the dial centers were gilt? gilded? Or just matte and engraved or decorated some way and polished and lacquered? I'm pretty sure the dial center on my Atkins braket is gilt. It might be easier to hide plugs that way. Lol
     
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I don't think these dial centres would have been gilded, but it would have looked much cleaner and brighter. Spandrels could be fire gilded.

    I'm not convinced the chapter ring belongs as it doesn't appear to fit, but it could come clearer if you take it off and look at alternative mounting holes.

    You certainly do get seconds subsidiaries let into the chapter ring. Check the engraving style to see if they match. If the chapter ring is not original to the dial plate then perhaps the seconds ring came with it.
     
  16. NigelW

    NigelW Registered User

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    The tarnish on the dial centre and the fact that there are two different sets of fixing holes suggest to me the the seconds ring has been moved upwards from its original position. It is more normal for the seconds ring not to be let into the chapter ring. Of the 150 or so illustrations of seconds rings in Loomes's Brass dial clocks only about 4 are let in, one of which is too early and two are Irish.
     
  17. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    The engraving style does seem to match. There is a couple extra holes on the right side, and some small holes, in addition to the 4 that I think are the original dial foot holes and the 3 added dial feet.
    A couple more pictures. With the seconds in the other holes. I cleaned the center a bit, just to get the dirt off.

    15524025046308752016013580021045.jpg 15524026795698541206516304183246.jpg 15524027399586473431788391458489.jpg
     
  18. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    We can't prove it either way, but look at the engraving. If you were going to match the engraving down to the finest detail, wouldn't you make a seconds ring that didn't cut into the chapter ring?

    Often you get more of a clue, because the XII is sometimes given a curve at the bottom too, but what I can see is the same style of numerals, the use of diamond lozenges, and the use of opposing arrowheads. The original may have had a seconds subsidiary too, but in a different position.
     
  19. NigelW

    NigelW Registered User

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    Just found this, by Thomas Ogden of Halifax, Samuel II's brother it would seem, on p 191 on Loomes Clockmakers of Northern England. This is a more elaborate and possibly later dial but has the same little arrowheads in both the chapter and seconds ring. The seconds rings is slightly let into the chapter ring, but not as much as yours now is.

    54255726_10156279851333473_5433076450540388352_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.jpg
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Are those winding holes simply ringed or are they inserts? Some clocks have silvered rings around the winding holes which are inserts. It is possible the oversize holes are not vandalism but evidence of missing inserts anyway.
     
  21. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Hmm lots to think about lol thank you. I'm still not sure about the dial plate either if the seconds dial is in what looked like the original holes, it doesn't line up, which would be important to me if I was making a dial. Put in the other holes where its set into the chapter ring, it does line up.
    Is also a Thomas Ogden here. Lol .much fancier

    15524070605626870724845609571658.jpg 1552407142990597958240819824443.jpg 15524071787764857977029515448645.jpg
     
  22. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    well if the chapter ring and seconds belong together but not with the dialplate that's what you would expect.
     
  23. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Yep was basically verifying your point that they probably do not belong together. Also to note the cutout under the 12 is messy, so I'm pretty sure you are also right about it not being let into the chapter ring, At least as much as it is now.
    I'm think that on that clock in Nigel's picture, the rings are inserts, or rather pinned on, it looks like they each have 2 pins. There is another, almost identical dial, except it has birds engraved on the center, by him online where you can clearly see the pins and the rings are brass on that one.

    Also again Thank you very much.
    I guess I'll just set this dial aside for now and fix it one day, even though It will surely never have a proper home.
    Maybe one day I'll find a complete, proper brass dial long case but sure wont be $100. Lol
    White dials and german ones on the other hand, seem to be everywhere. I was kinda wondering if I should make a thread on all of the clocks I acquired and sort of rescued recently, but it feels like showing off or bragging, and until recently I've always been to shy to post anything. Lol
     
  24. NigelW

    NigelW Registered User

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    Bragging or not, please post them. It will be so interesting for the rest of us.

    A professional clock restorer/dealer will no doubt see enough examples passing through his hands to learn from but we amateurs are not so lucky. The more examples posted here the more we can learn and appreciate this wonderful craft.
     
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  25. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    At an auction in Dorset a short while ago a perfectly respectable 30 hour brass dial from around 1750 was sold for £50 on the hammer. It had the original hand, case, weight, and pendulum. The movement was posted frame with round posts as in lantern clocks. The case was simple oak, square dial.

    There simply is limited demand and an over supply for provincial brass dial longcase here. I think painted dials are slightly ahead for the same reasons they were able to demand a premium in the first place. They are brighter and cheerier than a brass dial for most people.
     
  26. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Wow £50. Would love something like that. I think it's a bit opposite around here, the last 30hr brass dial one I saw locally sold for $3000, that was sort of retail, a 2nd hand shop, and it was in desperate need of help.

    Thanks Nigel, though I'm not a professional restorer or dealer, I would just say professional repair person. Although Professional restorer, antiquarian horologist and/or Daniel's style watchmaking was my initial goal when I started. I'm always practicing. I usually grab something from my pile, like this rusty hand, down there (I havent figured out how to insert images in the text) and practice while I have my morning coffee.
    So when I get more organized and figure out what goes where I'll post some of my own that have to be done, so a little preview Lol. Yes terrible pictures.
    Dan.

    20190314_044959.jpg 20190315_074039.jpg 20190308_130846.jpg 20190121_094556.jpg
     

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