Help with restoration of great grandfather's 14k hunter case

[weirhouse]

The case in the attached photos belonged to my great Grandfather when he worked as a conductor for the Illinois Central railroad as a conductor out of Jackson, MS. I am trying to restore the case - the Elgin B.W. Raymond movement has already been cleaned and serviced and is in good shape thanks to Daniel Summers at Crystal-Fit.

The case is solid 14k, multi-color gold, apparently made by AB & Co. I think. Case serial number stamp is 78623. There is a small tear on the rim that I'm having laser welded.

Main issue I'm up against is the missing bezel and crystal. Looking for help and suggestions on how to best replace it with a piece close to what the original would have had.

Appreciate the help.
Scott

[Kent]

Hi Scott:

Would you please share the serial number and markings on the BWR movement?

Watch case bezels can be found a various NAWCC Marts. There are a few dealers that have boxes of them to root through. Don Barrett is said to have the most extensive selection.

Good luck,

[weirhouse]

Kent,
SN is 6761342 and it's a 17 jewel with a fancy dial. Pics attached. Appreciate any info you can provide.
Thanks
Scott

[Kent]

Scott:

I forgot to say this earlier: Welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch Message Board!

If I put down too much information (stuff you already know), I apologise for over-doing it. You have a very nice looking watch. And, it is a railraod standard watch.

Many people have come to call any large old pocket watch, especially one with an engraving of a locomotive on the back of the case, a railroad watch. This usage is frequently is incorrect. The term "Railroad Watch" was used by the watch and jewelry trade (and is now used by collectors) to refer those high grade watches that met the requirements of railroad time service rules and standards. The railroad industry, and the railroaders themselves, referred to the watches as "Standard Watches," literally, those watches that met the railroads' time service standards.

Although the person who originally owned a watch may have worked for a railroad, it is not necessarily what could properly be called a "Railroad Watch." The use of a standard watch was only required of a portion of railroad employes (correct spelling, used in many older railroad documents), usually those directly involved in running the trains, or controlling, or affecting, the operation of trains. Other employes carried whatever watches they liked. Typical lists of those required to carry a standard watch appear in an 1892 report of Time Inspection on the Illinois Central Railroad and as Standard Time Rule No. 2 in a 1901 Edition of Canadian Pacific Railway General, Train, and Interlocking Rules. A later list of Burlington Route employes required to carry a standard watch is shown in these 1949 CB&Q Rules. The Union Pacific RR website has concise explanations of Past and Present Railroad Job Descriptions

To learn more about railroad time service, time inspection and railroad standard watches, see ”Just What Is A Railroad Watch?” On the Pocket Horology, NAWCC Chapter 174 Website (scroll down to the title of the article). However, please keep in mind that information that became available since the above was written indicates that hunting-case watches were not specifically prohibited from railroad time service, at least, not as early as 1906-1908.

The Elgin National Watch Co. was the biggest American watch company in terms of jeweled movements produced, over 50,000,000 in its approximately 100 years of building watches from 1866 to the 1960s. Wayne Schlitt has a great web site devoted to Elgin watches at elginwatches.org. Also, an early article on the company, The National Watch Company by S. W. Robinson, J. of the Franklin Institute, 1869, originally from Greg Frauenhoff's website can be viewed.

Basic information about an Elgin watch, including its approximate date of manufacture, can be obtained by using the serial number on the movement (the "works"), not the case, to look the watch up on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin watch web site at elginwatches.org. Choose "Elgin Databases" on the left-hand side of the page and then "Serial Number Lookup." Be sure to type in the serial number without any spaces or commas. If you enter a space and then "v=13" after the serial number, notes on surviving examples will be included in the ensuing report. These were as reported to Wayne, or as he found them on the internet. After you look up your watch, choose "Watch Codes" from the menu in the left-hand side of the page, that's where the abbreviations are explained. There is a lot of other good information on the site on Elgin watches and on pocket watches in general. Its well worth a couple of hours to go through different sections.

Oldwatch.com's Elgin Production Date Table, or the PocketWatchSite's Elgin Date Table also provide a means for determining the approximate production date. In general, we think of serial number vs. date lists - created by using the average number of watches produced over a period of years - to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more. This is not just for Elgin, but for other watch manufacturers as well.

Having checked the above mentioned references, it can be seen that movement serial number 6761342 is an 18-size, 17-jewel B.W. Raymond grade No. 27, built in about 1896. At this point in time, the B.W. Raymond grade No. 27 was being supassed by the grade No. 149 as Elgin's top 18-size hunting-case watch. YOu can see a brief description and where it fit in Elgin's line of 18-size watches on page 192 of the 1896 Marshall Field Jewelry Catalog.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.

A short history of American watch cases, within the online article "Decorative Aspects of American Horology," by Philip Poniz, can be viewed on The Antiquorum Magazine website.

Watches that are carried daily need to be cleaned and oiled at regular intervals. Railroad time service rules varied, but requirements for cleaning on a basis of once every year and a half were typical for railroaders at the turn of the century. By the mid-1920’s this was extended to two year intervals.

The “Sears, Roebuck and Co., Inc. Catalogue No. 104,” Chicago, IL, 1897, reprinted by Chelsea House, Philadelphia, PA, 1968 had this to say on page 371:

“We Guarantee for Five Years All the movements sold by us. This does not refer to the life of the movement, but that we will for five years from date of purchase, correct free of charge any fault which may occur from defective material or workmanship. Any well made movement will run a lifetime if properly cared for.
“Remember That your watch should not run longer than one and one-half years without having the old oil cleaned off and fresh oil supplied. This must be done at the expense of the purchaser.
“The balance wheel of all modern watches makes 18,000 beats or revolutions per hour; 432,000 per day, or 157,788,000 per year. An engine or sewing machine will be oiled several times per day, but we have known people to carry a watch for ten years without having it cleaned or fresh oil applied.
“Usually, a movement thus treated is of no value, being entirely worn out. Take good care of your watch if you wish it to perform its duty properly, for it is a very delicate machine. Our charge for cleaning and oiling is 75 cents. The regular retail price is $1.50.”

Watch cleaning and oiling costs a bit more today than it did a hundred years ago. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Also, check out Frequently Asked Questions on the Pocket Watch Site.

Also, Ed Ueberall, of The Escapement has put together some notes on the Use And Care of Your Vintage Watch that may be helpful.

Service Frequency
If the watch is run continually, a cleaning and oiling is needed every 3-5 years. If you're only going to wear your watch occasionally, this ought to be done once at the onset and about every ten years thereafter. If you're not going to carry it (or run it), don't bother getting it serviced. Many of the watches in my collection (that aren't run) haven't been cleaned and oiled in 20 or 30 years or more.

Having gathered and printed out information about a family watch, it is a wise idea to write out as much as you know about the family member to whom the watch originally belonged. Then, add the names and relationships of the family members who passed it down to the current holder. Make up a booklet with this and all of the watch information and try to keep it with the watch. This way, the watch has real family heritage instead of it just being an old family watch, the identity and relationship of the original owner having been lost in the distant past.

You have a great heirloom,good luck with it,

P.S. If nobody else comes up with specific information on how to get a bezel and crystal, you can have one made by Wuischpard & Son.

[terry hall]

To Tag onto Kent's first post....


Bezels and Crystals need to be fitted to the particular case and movement combination... there are varying combinations of crystal heights, hand heights, etc that must be confirmed... (ever seen one haphazardly fitted where the cover won't close... or the hands catch?)

Yes there are many vendors at marts with bezels, but it IS like a needle in the proverbial haystack.... it does take time.

IMHO... it is best (if you have a relationship with a source) to send the complete assembly for fitment.

[weirhouse]

Kent,
Wow - thanks for the information. I am just getting started in this hobby and have been doing some reading, but your post really added a lot. I have been curious about this watch being a "sidewinder," Roman Numeral dial, and in a Hunter case vs the RR standards I'd seen.

I've been trying to do some research on my great grandfather, Homer Weir - he was cool with the name long before The Simpson's :-). Have seen reference to him in a 1919 issue of Illinois Central magazine, and his brother Horace Weir is referenced in "History of the Illinois Central Railroad Company and Representative Employees."

Do you know what the role of the Conductor would be at this time relative to time keeping and scheduling vs say the Engineer? I'll try to read the material you referenced as well.

BTW, I spoke to Wuischpard & Son who said they could make a 14k bezel for about $150 labor plus cost of material estimated at about $200. However his backlog is such that he's quoting 6 months turn around.

Also spoke to Don Barnett, and he on the other hand quoted one day turn around, and $150 for a replacement from his collection of bezels. He felt confident he could find one to fit. Thus, I think I'll try that route first. Per the other suggestion, I'm going to send the whole kit and kaboodle to him so he can find a good fit.

Thanks!
Scott

[Kent]

Originally Posted by weirhouse

Kent,
Wow - thanks for the information. I am just getting started in this hobby and have been doing some reading, but your post really added a lot. I have been curious about this watch being a "sidewinder," Roman Numeral dial, and in a Hunter case vs the RR standards I'd seen.
...
Thanks!
Scott

Scott:

Your great-grandfather's watch is not a sidewinder, it is a hunting-case watch. The term "sidewinder" (or "sidewheeler") is applied to a hunting movement placed in an open-face case. The Big Four - The Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway Co. and Peoria & Eastern Railway Co., Time Inspection Service Circular, Indianapolis, Dec. 15, 1897, section 10 shows that hunting case watches were accepted at that date, and probably much later.

Webb C. Ball, when addressing a convention of the Steam Division of the National Safety Council in 1920, said:

"The use of such closed-face models that have been converted into open face watches without changing the position of the stem has proved disastrous to life and property as a result of false reading of the time indicated. A serious error of 15 minutes can easily result from a confused reading of a side-wheeler watch dial …”

The typical statement in the various rules is best exemplified by what the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad (CB&Q - The Burlington Route) published on the subject on April 1, 1949

“3a. (in part) All watches going into service must be adjusted to 5 positions and so stamped on plates, also must be lever set, have Arabic standard or marginal minute dials, and if in open-faced cases wind at the figure 12.”

Neither Ball, nor the CB&Q (or other roads) specifically prohibited hunting-case watches. Except for those mounted in open-face cases with conversion dials (see below), hunting-case watches aren't mentioned in post-1908 documents. When mentioned prior to that, it was to specifically note their acceptance. One such example is in section 10 of the Big Four - The Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway Co. and Peoria & Eastern Railway Co., Time Inspection Service Circular, Indianapolis, Dec. 15, 1897. The subject of hunting movements in open-face cases is discussed in section 11.

Public taste in watches changed away from hunting-case by the 'teens, so much so that by the 1920s they were no longer being made in grades suitable for railroad service. Nevertheless, it is believed that hunting-case watches continued to be accepted on some railroads beyond WWII. Dan Anderson wrote several letters touching on the subject in the summer of 1997. He wrote about working in his uncle's watch shop in 1952-8. The shop was located across from a depot that served the UP, SP, WP and about five short lines. Dan recalled seeing hunting case watches still in service at that time. But then, by 1950, other railroads had started publishing minimum serial numbers of watches that that would be allowed to enter or remain in service. These serial numbers were far above those carried by the last of the hunting-case railroad grade movements. Since the serial numbers closely dated to the use of magnetically immune hairsprings and balances, perhaps the reason was to ensure the use of the magnetically immune hairsprings (Elinvar, Conel, Elginium, etc.) at a time when the use of diesel road locomotives was increasing. This put large numbers of railroads in the near proximity of magnetic fields.

A "conversion dial" is used in order to place a hunting-case movement in an open-face case and have the winding stem at the hour figure '12.' The configuration places the seconds bit at the 3 o'clock position. This 16-Size Example was made by the Hampden Watch Co. for its model 1, grade No. 107. Conversion dials were available from both the watch companies and from third party suppliers. Such dials were occasionally used in railroad time service to allow otherwise suitable hunting-case movements to be placed in open-face cases and meet the typical requirement "All watches put up in open-face cases must wind at figure 12, except such open-face watches as have heretofore passed inspection." The dial on this Waltham 18-size, hunting model 92, Crescent St. Movement serves as an example. The quoted rule is from Webb C. Ball's 1906 rules for a division of the Pennsylvania Rail Road, at the bottom of Section 3. Similar wording can be found in rules from across the country and over the years. A later example appears at the bottom of Section 4 of the USRA-NYC Instructions to Local Watch Inspectors, April 1, 1919.

Getting back to Roman dials, that is not as big of an issue as that fact that the dial on your watch is what is termed a "Fancy Dial."

The Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway (AT&SF)
1906 rules stated:

'Rule 4 - “Fancy” dials or those other than regular factory product, vis.: plain Arabic or Roman figures or the Company's standard dial are prohibited.'

This is shown in Santa Fe: How It Governed Its Timepieces Throughout the System, David M. Nicholson, Dougherty Press, Enid OK, 1985, pg. 10.

This was the road for which Henry S. Montgomery was the General Watch and Clock Inspector and the "Company's standard dial" that the rule referred to was Montgomery's marginal minute dial. The point is that it clearly indicates that Roman, but not fancy, dials were accepted on that road in 1906.

However, your great-grandfather worked on the Illinois Central (at the same time - based upon the watch's built date - and in the same area as Casey Jones). Different railraods had different rules and, at the present, we don't have a copy of the the 1896-1906 Illinois Central rules to examine. However, neither the 1897 New York Central's Big Four Rules (see Section 11), nor the 1906 Pennsylvania Rail Road's Cleveland & Pittsburg(h) Division Rules have anything to say about fancy dials.

Oh, the conductor was (and is) the supervisor on the train, responsible for its business and all of its personnel and operations. The engineer was (and is) responsible for the safe running of the engine, under the conductor's direction.

Please let us know if you have further questions.

[weirhouse]

Just a follow up post to show some pictures of the restored watch. Thanks to those who helped with it:

Daniel Summers at CrystalFit for the movement servicing, advice and counsel

Don Barrett for the bezel, crystal, hands, and pointing me to Don Mathis

Don Mathis for re-engraving the case

Also attached a family photo circa 1939 in Water Valley, MS. That's Homer in front, second from the left, and my dad is the little guy. In a twist of fate, in working with Don Mathis, we found out that his family heritage also traces back to Water Valley, MS. Thanks Cousin ? ! ?

[Kent]

Very nice!

Having said that, I'm not sure that re-engraving the case was the right thing to do. Many people feel that preserving a watch and preventing further wear is important, but that the sort of "restoration" that involves re-engraving is inappropriate. But then, this is always up to the individual. When all is said and done, it is your family watch, not ours.

[49stude63]

Since I collect and restore 20's-early 40's tube radios the topic of restoration and what degree do you restore the radio to is a devisive debate. In this case it looks like you "restored" the watch back to what it looked like when your grandfather purchased the watch and in that case I think it was a noble effort that ended up with a beautiful result. I am sure that it ran a few $$ to do what you did to restore the watch and I tend to always feel that memories of you parents and your grandparents and what they stood for and what they contributed to your life are invaluable. I don't know if you have children, if you do when it it time pass it on to them but also pass on the memories of your heritage.