update Ball companies

[Jeff Hess]

This an update to a former note about the history of the Ball Companies
from my research of family records and such. This is copywrite Jeffrey P. Hess and isahre with the NAWCC. Please acknowledge.


"The Webb C. Ball Watch Company " formerly incorporated under the laws of Ohio filed with the state of Illinois to formed in January of 1912 with officers being Webb, his wife, , his son Sidney and some railroad men, a Frank Rockefeller and others as a "general Jobbing" business.

In 1913 (july) Ball Watch Company bought the assets of the the Norris Allister company.

In late July of 1913 The Webb C. Ball Watch Company accepted a proposal by Sidney Y Ball to "purchase as of August 13th all of the tangible assets accounts and bills receivable of the business" of the WEbb C. Ball Watch Company with the proviso that the "retail jewelry business" in Ohio would be retained by the former owners. Sidney said that the new company would now to be called the "Norris Allister Ball watch company".

In 1913 an application was made and the Saftey First "movement" had its logo registerd with the United States Patent office in 1914 by Sidney Ball. (The Safety First meetings were already being held) (Webb C. Ball then "hit the road" barnstorming throughout this decade these meetings while Sidney ran the business)

The Railroad Time Service (a "heh-heh", not for profit business) was charted in 1918 with charter members being Webb C. Ball, Warren Stone, Robert Gross, F Ball, Oscar Horn Sidney Ball W. f. Hayes and Henry J. Cowell "

By 1945, the Webb C. Ball Watch Company had as its shareholders Sidney Ball, D. E. Morgan, other BAll family members, Mr. Ruthart, Chemical bank and The Ball Raillroad Time service.

In 1948 Webb C. Ball II, Sidneys son, (Webb's grandson) filed to purchase the 325 shares that the Railroad Time service held in the Webb C. BAll Watch Company.

Then in 1951, a proposal was set up to merge the Webb C. Ball Watch Company (now strictly a Holding Company "having ceased operations")with "The Ball Company".
Jeffrey P. Hess

[BILL KAPP]

Jeff,

Fascinating stuff! I am sure this has been addressed before but I missed it. Do all the different financial partners have a bearing on the different company names?

Did Ball & Co represent different investors who had contracts with the Unions ? I noticed that watches in the same runs would be marked Ball & Co on Brotherhood watches but would be Ball Watch Co for the Ball ORRS.

Will you be putting all your research together in an upcoming article?


Thanks for sharing.

Happy hunting,

Bill

[Jeff Hess]

This an update to a former note about the history of the Ball Companies
from my research of family records and such. This is copywrite Jeffrey P. Hess and isahre with the NAWCC. Please acknowledge.


"The Webb C. Ball Watch Company " formerly incorporated under the laws of Ohio filed with the state of Illinois to formed in January of 1912 with officers being Webb, his wife, , his son Sidney and some railroad men, a Frank Rockefeller and others as a "general Jobbing" business.

In 1913 (july) Ball Watch Company bought the assets of the the Norris Allister company.

In late July of 1913 The Webb C. Ball Watch Company accepted a proposal by Sidney Y Ball to "purchase as of August 13th all of the tangible assets accounts and bills receivable of the business" of the WEbb C. Ball Watch Company with the proviso that the "retail jewelry business" in Ohio would be retained by the former owners. Sidney said that the new company would now to be called the "Norris Allister Ball watch company".

In 1913 an application was made and the Saftey First "movement" had its logo registerd with the United States Patent office in 1914 by Sidney Ball. (The Safety First meetings were already being held) (Webb C. Ball then "hit the road" barnstorming throughout this decade these meetings while Sidney ran the business)

The Railroad Time Service (a not for profit business) was charted in 1918 with charter members being Webb C. Ball, Warren Stone, Robert Gross, F Ball, Oscar Horn Sidney Ball W. f. Hayes and Henry J. Cowell "

Around 1927 the firm became known as the Norris Alister Ball Bridges Co. which lasted a few short years.

By 1945, the Webb C. Ball Watch Company had as its shareholders Sidney Ball, D. E. Morgan, other BAll family members, Mr. Ruthart, Chemical bank and The Ball Raillroad Time service.

In 1948 Webb C. Ball II, Sidneys son, (Webb's grandson) filed to purchase the 325 shares that the Railroad Time service held in the Webb C. BAll Watch Company.

Then in 1951, a proposal was set up to merge the Webb C. Ball Watch Company (now strictly a Holding Company "having ceased operations")with "The Ball Company".
Jeffrey P. Hess

[Jeff Hess]

Jeff,

Fascinating stuff! I am sure this has been addressed before but I missed it. Do all the different financial partners have a bearing on the different company names?

Did Ball & Co represent different investors who had contracts with the Unions ? I noticed that watches in the same runs would be marked Ball & Co on Brotherhood watches but would be Ball Watch Co for the Ball ORRS.

Will you be putting all your research together in an upcoming article?

--------------

Mr. Kapp,

The Ball fellows did not like the tax man much and seemed to delite in keeping the tax man confused. Or else they were just not very organized.

Webb's wife used to be credited with keeping Webb's head out of the clouds. She was the taskmaster. And pictures of her with newspaper in hand, strong and a head taller than WEbb seemed to confirm this,

The watch co and the store and Sidney's Chicago thing, with it's many permutations caught up with them more than once.

Heck, in the 1950's even the lawyers could not get it straight.

note on page three the relationship between the inspectors and the railroads! Also note the notations in the margins and the corrections.

Who the heck knows?

I am going to hire a research assistant to help me with this. Anyone know any college student or intern I could hire?

Every week I find some interesting and often germane nuance to the story.
Jeff Hess

[Jerry Treiman]

I was wondering in what context to post a picture of my latest acquisition, and Jeff's resurrection of this thread answered my question. This small ladies pendant watch (a little larger than a quarter) was cased for "The Webb C. Ball Watch Co., Cleveland" (stamped inside the back cover) around 1912. The dial is marked "Ball Watch Co., Cleveland".


The movement is a high-grade 17-jewel, pin-set 10-ligne Waltham movement that was not commonly sold or listed except from higher-end retailers.


This watch was of great interest to me because the case was made by a small New Jersey casemaker - H.W. Matalene - who I have been researching for a number of years. He apparently made cases exclusively for Waltham and this is an early example - serial number 124. The essence of his early case designs and patents was to do away with the standard pendant, crown and bow to present a more jewelry-like appearance. Below is part of his Apr.20, 1909 patent. His cases are usually marked with the Apr.20,'09 patent date or Apr.16,'12.

[4thdimension]

You guys are tough acts to follow.
Congratulations on the finds! It is all tremendously interesting .
-Cort
[edit=430=1193035750][/edit]

[Jeff Hess]

Jerry,

Awesome!

I guess I have never noticed before, but, I am assuming that the circualr damaskeeing on this watch is normal and not Ball-esque?

Jeff

[Jerry Treiman]

Yes, this is a common finish for higher-grade small movements, especially for private labels. In a couple of earlier runs this grade was finished like the 10L Maximus but later examples are all like this, including the later 9-ligne thin version. I wish it were a unique Ball finish, but I am afraid not.

[Jeff Hess]

Warren s stone was president of the union and also head of several union investment vehicles. And President of the Brotherhhood Bank. Oscar J Horn was vp of the Union. Robert S Gross was a banker out of dunkirk and also owned a railroad car company. Hayes was a long time Ball associate. Still looking for rock solid info on Flamen Ball. There was a Flamen Ball who was a partner of Salmon Chases'. Perhaps this fellow is his son? A Flamen Ball was also a prominant Cincinnatti attorney. I am now pretty convinced that Flamen Ball was NOT related to Webb.

Any info appreciated.

Jeff Hess

[Jeff Hess]

This a further update to a former note about the history of the Ball Companiesfrom my research of family records and such. This is copyright Jeffrey P. Hess and I share with the NAWCC. Please acknowledge.

"The Ball Time Service System was maintained in the Railway Exchange, Chicago and established in 1905 and in the Flood Bldg. San Francisco, established in 1908."


"The Webb C. Ball Watch Company " formerly incorporated under the laws of Ohio filed with the state of Illinois to formed in January of 1912 with officers being Webb, his wife, , his son Sidney and some railroad men, a Frank Rockefeller and others as a "general Jobbing" business.

In 1913 (july) Ball Watch Company bought the assets of the the Norris Allister company.

In late July of 1913 The Webb C. Ball Watch Company accepted a proposal by Sidney Y Ball to "purchase as of August 13th all of the tangible assets accounts and bills receivable of the business" of the WEbb C. Ball Watch Company with the proviso that the "retail jewelry business" in Ohio would be retained by the former owners. Sidney said that the new company would now to be called the "Norris Allister Ball watch company".

In 1913 an application was made and the Saftey First "movement" had its logo registerd with the United States Patent office in 1914 by Sidney Ball. (The Safety First meetings were already being held) (Webb C. Ball then "hit the road" barnstorming throughout this decade these meetings while Sidney ran the business)

The Railroad Time Service (a not for profit business) was charted in 1918 with charter members being Webb C. Ball, Warren Stone, Robert Gross, F Ball, Oscar Horn Sidney Ball W. f. Hayes and Henry J. Cowell "

Around 1927 the firm became known as the Norris Alister Ball Bridges Co. which lasted a few short years.

By 1945, the Webb C. Ball Watch Company had as its shareholders Sidney Ball, D. E. Morgan, other BAll family members, Mr. Ruthart, Chemical bank and The Ball Raillroad Time service.

In 1948 Webb C. Ball II, Sidneys son, (Webb's grandson) filed to purchase the 325 shares that the Railroad Time service held in the Webb C. BAll Watch Company.

Then in 1951, a proposal was set up to merge the Webb C. Ball Watch Company (now strictly a Holding Company "having ceased operations")with "The Ball Company".
Jeffrey P. Hess