Variations within a grade by Manufacturers

[HenryB]

Seems like the following Manufacturers grade listing had just a single watch characteristics (i.e. OF/HC, Jewels, Finish, Adjustments) :

Hamilton
Elgin
South Bend
Rockford

The following Manufacturers had various variations within a single grade:

Hampden
Illinois (probably the most variations)
Waltham (am not personally as well versed on these, as a lot of our viewers)


How about some of the other Manufacturers ?

Aurora
Columbus
Howard
Howard (Keystone)
Ingersoll
Ingraham
New York Standard
Seth Thomas
US Watch Co.
Waterbury

[Clint Geller]

E. Howard & Company didn't have named (or even numbered) watch movement grades until 1885, four years after Edward Howards' retirement form the company's management, when a system of ten numerical grades was introduced. An extensive discussion of the company's functional "grade" (i..e, quality level) system prior to this date can be found in my book, NAWCC Special Order Supplement #6, published December 2005. I derived my own three-digit grade system, described therein, encompassing all early Howard watches, both pre- and post-1885, based on comparisons of the terse and sometimes ambiguous factory record data with a large amount of data from actual Howard watches.

As for variations within a specific designated grade, I think the products of the US Watch Co. of Marion, NJ probably take the prize for showing the greatest variation in quality in a short period. As opposed to companies like Waltham, which offered a range of quality within a given grade for marketing reasons, in the case of US Marion, quality standards declined rapidly and dramatically over a span of a few years as a result of economic difficulties.

[Kent]

Henry:

Regarding those "... Manufacturers" whose "grade listing had just a single watch characteristics ..., I take exception to one that you listed.

Some of Elgin's grade names were applied to a wide variety of sizes, jeweling and type (open-face and hunting-case). Although Elgin's grade numbers were fixed to a size, jeweling and type, some of the same grade number movements had a variety of grade names applied.

[HenryB]

Kent:
When I use Wayne's Elgin wonderful database, and perform the lookup, I thought he had the "grades" seperated.

Did not realize there were variations within the grades.
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[Kent]

Henry:

You might consider borrowing some back issues of the [colour=blue]NAWCC Bulletin[/colour] and reading the following:

"Railroaders' Corner - Elgin's Veritas Model - Part 1: The First Three Grades," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin No. 355, April 2005, pp. 208-216.

"Railroaders' Corner - Elgin's Veritas Model - Part 2: The Rest of the Standard Grades," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin No. 356, June 2005, pp. 361-368.

"Railroaders' Corner - The Elgin 16-Size B.W. Raymond, Part 1: 17 & 19-Jewel Watches," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin No. 336, February, 2002, pp. 65-71.

"Railroaders' Corner - The Elgin 16-Size B.W. Raymond, Part 2: The 21 and 23-Jewel Watches," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin No. 337, April, 2002, pp. 209-217).

"Railroaders' Corner - The Watch That Gets Forgotten: Elgin's Father Time," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin, No. 348, February 2004, pp. 63-72.

One of the major benefits of NAWCC membership is the access to the huge amount of information in the [colour=blue]NAWCC Bulletin[/colour]. There is an Online Bulletin Index that can be used to locate specific subjects. Back issues of the [colour=blue]NAWCC Bulletin[/colour] are available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Library & Research Center.
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[Tom McIntyre]

Generalizations are always fraught with problems, but I think I can safely say that most grade names represent many distinct models and jewel configurations, while most grade numbers represent a relatively uniform model and jewel configuration.

However, having said that, it is easy to find lots of exceptions. The obvious grade names that are unique are the prestige watches like the Elgin C. H. Hurlburd, the Edward Howard and the Premier Maximus. Even in this small a class there are exceptions like the 922 and 923 Hamilton Masterpieces.

Within the numbered grades, the easiest exception I can think of is the Hampden Grade 104 but I am sure there must be others. I can't think offhand of any Elgin or Hamilton grade numbers that differ in anything except superficial finish details. Hamilton used names so rarely that they may not really count.

For me the classic grade is the Waltham American Watch Co. grade. Within this grade can be found many models and jewel counts over a period of 40 years. I will be giving a talk in Daytona on Saturday morning on the subject of the American Watch Co. grade. Please come if you are in town.

[rrwatch]

I can think of several watch grade numbers that differed by more than finish.
The Elgin Grades 149 and 150 changed over from 20 to 21 jewels early in their production cycles. The Hamilton Grades 940, 992 and others incorporated a change from single to double roller without changing grade numbers, as did many Hampden grades. I don't know if you would consider the Hayden W Wheeler Hamiltons a single grade (they were never assigned a three digit Hamilton grade number), but they were made with two jewel counts (17 and 21), setting mechanisms (pendant & lever set) and configurations (open and hunting).
Also both Elgin and Waltham used the same grade names or numbers when they incorporated a wind indicator, as opposed to Rockford, who assigned a different grade number for their WIs.

[Kent]

Originally Posted by HenryB

... When I use Wayne's Elgin wonderful database, and perform the lookup, I thought he had the "grades" seperated. ...

Henry:

Try looking up Elgin serial number 15768795. When you place the number in the lookup field, follow it with a space and then v=13. Although this run, and others, are of 3/4-plate, grade No. 390, the watches within grade No. 390 runs are marked "Father Time" B. W. Raymond" or "No. 349" (which is the grade number of a full-plate, 21-jewel, open-face, 18-size movement).

The No. 349 was a lower grade movement than the No. 390. This should bring up the question as to whether all the watches from the runs of grade No. 390 were finished to the same specification.

When one gets right down to it, Elgin's function in life was to make money by manufacturilng and selling watches. Being rational and consistent were not necessarily the highest priorities.

[HenryB]

Yep I see now what your saying Kent on the Elgins

[Jerry Treiman]

Originally Posted by Tom

Generalizations are always fraught with problems, but I think I can safely say that most grade names represent many distinct models and jewel configurations, while most grade numbers represent a relatively uniform model and jewel configuration.

I would agree with Tom's observation. For instance Elgin used the "B.W.Raymond" name on 12, 16 and 18 size watches. I think the grade names really implied a relative level of quality within the product line more than a specific configuration. This is even more apparent with Waltham. I believe the most widely used grade name may be "Riverside", with more than 25 different models in 14 different sizes. You can view most of these in a thread posted on the Chapter 185 web site. --> click here

Although it was probably an accident I would point out that Hamilton used the grade numbers 922 & 923 for early 18-size movements and later for a 12 and 10-size movement.