What is an unreasonable watchmaker?

[DeweyC]

Question prompted by a recent post title.

Just curious.

Just to kick things off: Every once in a while I run into a tech who complains he only makes $20,000 a year "repairing" watches. Basically, he/she is cleaning watches for $50 and spends maybe 60 minutes. Doesn't believe in any of that fancy tooling, overhead, so on and so on.

OTOH, there are watchmakers who apply the principles of precision timing to every watch they service and make it a point to follow accepted restoration standards. For example, railroad watches are returned only after being brought to adjustment of less than 15 seconds across positions and they provide documentation to that effect. They may charge $225 for 3 hours assuming no parts need to changed or made. They generally carry an all hazards insurance policy that includes bailee coverage for pieces under their care.

Is one reasonable and the other not? Which one?

Is there a an hourly rate that watchmakers are supposed to charge so that all collectors can run their watches? Or, should they let the market decide what they are worth?

For the sake of discussion, we should limit the discussion to those running with a business license or report their business to the IRS; part or full time. First I am not much interested in the lives of tax cheats and I can't imagine collectors supporting those who disregard their responsibility to America.

Secondly, the highly skilled amateurs I know take in very few pieces a year and represent an insignificant percentage of the work. These guys generally take care of their own collections and do "favors". They do not want restoration to interfere with their travel and such. They work under their homeowner's insurance which has strict limits on coverage and they know their responsibility.

[Dr. Jon]

I was going to write something similar to Dewey's comments. I collect and do a bit of my own repair unless it looks really tricky. I do other things for a living and I do not want to take on the liability of a repair.

One other aspect of reasonable is the time for repairs. I don;t send an item out unless it requires high skill. Often I have to coach the repairer. I do this because I usually have givent them something hard to do and I recognize that doing my repair is taking away from time they could spend at something more lucrative.

I expect to wait at least a year for a "simple" staff replacement on a watch for which no new old stock parts are available. Harder parts take longer. I also recognize that a lot of stuff is hard and if a guy gets in trouble I don't climb all over him.

I also believe it is important to have these guys around. If they can't do the repair I still pay them for their efforts. I may need them again.

Expecting quick turn around for a repair on a very old watch at a price far below a rational living is not reasonable.

[Bill B]

An unreasonable watchmaker is one that would take work into a business and let it sit around for a year for a simple staff replacement. I am talking about a watchmaker not a jeweler who does minimal watch work. If you can't turn around a simple staff replacement for a year this person is either taking in to much work or is to lazy to do the work they take in. A good watchmaker should be able to cut any staff on a lathe in 1-2 hours, if you can't cut a staff you are not a watchmaker but a simple repairman. Then a complete cleaning 1-2 hours and a timing and adjustment a week to be sure it's right.
Last year I took in a 161A with a bad staff I gave him a mainspring. The cleaning was $60 staff and replacement $16 total was $76 it took him a week. The watch came back to me keeping time within 10-12 seconds a week as it should have. I consider him a reasonable watchmaker.
This man is no longer in business due to health reasons much to my dismay.

[DeweyC]

Thirty minutes to remove the old staff, find the replacement, fit it and reassemble the balance. An hour to disassemble the watch, clean, inspect, correct, assemble, lube. An hour to time the watch across position. His cost $5 for the staff; $5 for the mainspring.

$66 for 2 1/2 hours of work; around $25 per hour. Out of that $25 per hour he pays for his business license, local personal property tax on business fixtures and inventory, Soc. Sec. , insurance and State and Federal taxes, expenses for maintaining his equipment, etc.. Of course, this ignores the time he has to spend cleaning the premises, doing his bills, keeping up with correspondence, placing orders, dealing with shipping, going to the Post Office and bank, preparing his taxes and required business reports to whoever issues his license, etc.

I wonder if he takes vacations and eats steak once in a while and buys flowers for his wife on occasion. He might even be better off working for WalMart.

To get my lawnmower repaired at the Ace hardware is $40 an hour and that involves a high school kid changing parts on something that has no historical importance. A good car shop or gunsmith is twice that.

Don't know what it means; but it is an interesting observation.

I do agree that "a year to replace a simple staff" is excessive. Not sure why that would happen. However, overbooking and losing interest in the work are usually signs of undercharging. As these well intentioned workers get swamped they either procrastinate or start taking short cuts. Both are death to a business.

[Bill B]

I did not mention his bench was in his son’s jewelry store. So I would guess that his over head was not excessive . Personal property tax on business fixtures was done away with here because it was found to stifle business.
I can’t see how a person with a shop that just repaired watches could make it today, not enough parts or work. I brought him as many pocket watches to repair in 2 months as he had repaired in the last year, so he may have given me a deal. He mostly replaced battery in wrist watches.
Do you think the kid at Ace gets the $40 maybe $8 and you know where the rest goes, to cover the things you mentioned.

I think a watchmaker who is normally considered reasonable is one who does not charge very much! We have a local merchandiser newspaper that is comprised mainly of classified ads and every issue contains ads seeking plumbers, carpenters, etc. who charge reasonable prices!

[elginvanguard]

Well since i may be responsible for this issue,please allow me to explain what is unreasoable.
when you take watch in in early sept.and still dont have it back.
when you take a watch in thats running to have it cleaned and have it stop running after 2 weeks
to squirt lighter fluid in the watch to loosen things up,and return it to me saying it has been cleaned and charge 90.00
when you take a watch in with a good glass crystal and get it back with plastic crystal
to charge 250.00 to determine whats wrong with the watch.
i have has all of these happen to me in the last year with 3 reputable watchmakers

[Dr. Jon]

It may be just a odd coincidence but I note the "reasonable" watchmakers have all left business. Its a bit like the farmer who kept feeding his horse less and less. Just about the time he had gotten the horse down to none it went and died.

Keeping a collection in good order is like a lot of other things in that you have to know somethign about the services you want done and maintain a good relationship with those who will do it. Unless you have a fantastic personality it reasonable to pay a professional enough to make a living if you want to use them a lot.

As to reasonable; do the math. If a repairer is clearing $25 per hour and working 60 hours per week because he really loves it he grosses about 75K per year for a lot of work. A guy who fixes Rolexes gets $225 for each and says he can do 6 per day. No wonder they don't want to do your railroad watch for $100 and take half a day in it.

I have a cabinet of plastic crystals some one gave me. I can replace glass crystal with a plastic one for no money cost and one cabinet will fit almost anything I am likely to find. I have a friend who has a full inventory of crystals. It usually takes us about 1/2 hour to get the size right and he has an inventory of over a million crystals. This is because there is a lot of variation in glass crystals. they are packed in groups of three to accomodate the various sizes. Glass has no give so the fit has to exact. It usually take about 6 tries all with crystals marked the same size to get the right fit. The alternative is to pick a slightly over size one and grind it to size on a lathe. Since I would be using abrasives I would have dedicate a lathe to this and its is still at least a 1/2 hour to fit a crystal.

I have a well paying day job and and I get as much for that 1/2 hour as many want to spend on a full repair. You want glass, pay me enough to maintain $1,000,000 inventory and for 1/2 hour of my time to get and fit the right one. (With a 7% bank loan our guy making $25 per hour spends his entire income to service the debt on his glass crystal inventory; nothing to eat or pay the rent)

There was guy who set up a crystal business and was reasonable for the six months or so he stayed in business.

I do a few favors for friends and I don't charge them except for parts. If I did I would have to charge what I can get for my time at my day job and its a lot more than most NAWCC guys consider reasonable.


I have enough of this myself to appreciate good work and pay others to do what I can not do.

It is unreasonable to expect someone to develop high skills and an expensive inventory in order to live below the poverty line, no matter how much you want him to repair the watch you got a low price because it had few problems.

[DeweyC]

Elgin,

Certainly the things you outline are unreasonable; and several are fraudulent. I would have taken the fraud to small claims court. I have taken a couple customers and even Verizon to small claims and won every time. It is not a big deal.

OTOH, there is a common law prinicple that relates reasonable expectations to price. It is the same principle that guides judges in cases where someone bought a Rolex for $75 and is upset that it is not genuine. You have much more reason to expect industry standard service at say $200 than you do at $90.

There is a very basic part of psychology in this whole thing. The workman must charge enough to avoid the temptation to "cut corners". If he is charging less than the Ace hardware store for lawnmower repair, then most likely he is either a tax cheat or he is incompetent. If he is a tax cheat, what makes you so sure you are so special to him he will not cheat you? If his work is of so little regard that he would be better off taking a salary at WalMart, why would you want to entrust your collection to him?

Now yes, "cleaning" a railroad watch can be accomplished by almost anyone with a small screwdriver. But what happens when he loses a screw, bends a hand, breaks a crystal or tangles the spring? All of these are the result of lack of discipline. The lack of discipline that resulted in the problem really takes over in the ensuing panic when he tries to find something he hopes you won't notice and takes months to find.

None of this even involves the effort required to return an American RR watch to near its original performance. Virtually every RR watch I do takes at least an hour to readjust. This is NOT to the carrying of 15 seconds per week which is easily done with the regulator. This is to under 15 seconds difference across the original positionsl. Sadly, they left the factory at under 5 seconds.

But, after having springs tangled and "readjusted", balances knocked off their staffs, screws drilled to "poise" the badly mounted balance and such, I am satisfied with 15 seconds across 5 or 6 positions. The very first "straightening" of the balance spring creates a local stress/weakness that forever changes the performance of the spring.

There are more watchmakers than you may think who work to such standards. But they aren't charging $90.

BTW, "cleaning" is something I may do 3 times as I service a piece. Once to be able to see what is what, once before final assembly and in between as I "touch" parts needing attention. To me, it is not a chargeable operation. It is like steam cleaning the engine before removing cylinder head. But at least people who advertise their service as "cleaning" are not overstating very much. Most likely, that is exactly what is provided.

Bottom line is mechanical watch ownership is expensive. It is better to leave a piece "as is" in the collection than to entrust it someone who may well lessen its importance/value through lack of discipline. [colour=null]

[elginvanguard]

Jon,my reference to reasonable has very little to do woith price.It is about having the project done right.in a REASONABLE amount of time.when i have a watch cleaned i expect it to run for several years without problems.its not as though these watches get actual use i wind them on the first and third sunday of the month or real close to it.....I think 30 days is a reasonable amount of time to replace a staff,mainspring,or clean a watch.I do not have the ability to work on my watches.I really want to i just physically cant do it.I would never expect someone to do a skiiled trade for less money than i make.i am a sales rep. I know the meaning of value! and when i wrote reasonable it had more to do with time and quality than money.And where i live there just are not many watchmakers.and my schedule does not afford me the time to go to meetings where i can meet fellow members,not that i wouldnt love to attend just cant seem to be free on weekends.I do want to thank those who have contacted me with refferences.And i am confident i found a gentleman that will be reasoable in all aspects,thanks to all Bill