Why should I renew my membership...

[Veritas]

I think the bottom line is there has to be rules, of how people act here and it has to be enforced.The rudeness and other goings on here are not helping to change people,s minds that the NAWCC is a good organization to join.I think this message board is what helps attract people to the hobby.If you yell at people every day and call people names, they won,t be comming back here.

[Ansomnia]

Originally Posted by northcoastimports

For what it's worth, take it from someone who's visited or lurked on A LOT of message boards with a WIDE variety of subjects (from clocks, to cars, to engines, to art, to engineering, to music...) that these concerns you express are almost a necessary evil to the world of online communities.

I think someone even did a study once, on how the same character types evolve in online message boards that might evolve in human and proto-human communities.

There will always be those who intentionally try and derail or hijack the conversation... those that will join in a shouting session just for the fun...

northcoastimports, while you claim to know a lot about messageboards, your comments do not come across as being objective, thoughtful or helpful.

You seem to say people who complain or support a complaint on a messageboard are all troublemakers. Interesting. You only joined the MB this January. How can you make such an unsubstantiated broad negative statement? Are you perhaps a long-time NAWCC member - that's the only justification I can see for a newbie to say such a thing on this MB?

You also cite an unidentified study to back up your claims. Please keep in mind, your claims are potentially very damaging to other people's reputations - if you make disparaging statements supposedly based on studies, you have a duty to at least cite the studies and let other people check them out for accuracy and validity. Otherwise, you should say it is only hearsay or your personal opinion.

Originally Posted by northcoastimports

...My advice is to take it for what it is worth. Don't emotionally invest yourself.

I disagree. If a person spends a lot of time, effort and money on a serious hobby or business he cannot help but invest emotionally.

I think what you mean is that people should discuss OBJECTIVELY and not take online discussions PERSONALLY. I wholeheartedly agree with that but that concept is not the same as not investing any emotions.

Originally Posted by northcoastimports

And ...remember that the NAWCC can offer A LOT more than the online forum. Get involved in your local chapter and meetings. After all, this is where the NAWCC really needs you. Plus, you will find that the face-to-face attitude is MUCH different than what you will find on an online forum.

For what it's worth...

I don't think your suggestion is that helpful.

You are saying -- "don't take the MB seriously because face-to-face experiences at other NAWCC venues are devoid of the problems experienced by the MB".

That is not true. While people are generally nice in the NAWCC, the social aspect is not the only reason why people engage in NAWCC activities. For starters, Todd W. the original poster also complained about non-MB issues. The important issues I brought up on this MB have nothing to do with the MB - they, like Todd's complaints, were entirely horological. Those challenges are faced by the NAWCC regardless of whether this MB exists or not.

If there are real problems and management really wants to improve the organization then the problems must first be acknowledged before they can be tackled and improvements made to the NAWCC. By trying to intimidate and censor people, you are only deluding yourself. You will forever be asking yourselves why membership is on the decline or why new members don't stick around very long.

****

At this point, I will try be helpful and say what I believe the real problem is with this MB.

The MB claims to be about horological education but what management actually does is promote a community chat group primarily to foster friendly, lighthearted discussions that are not necessarily horologically accurate, objective or educational.

Personally, I don't see any problems promoting a lighthearted friendly community of clock and watch enthusiasts and businesses. The problems arise when some people try to have a serious technical and educational discussion that may require people to face unpleasant realities - from my own experiences, some of the more unpleasant realities don't sit well with members who have conflicting personal and/or business interests invested in the NAWCC or this MB. Then what happens is that their friends jump in and jump on the person(s) who originally raised the technical concern.

Ironically, this is in fact the very people who northcoastimports claims "... intentionally try and derail or hijack the conversation... those that will join in a shouting session just for the fun...". He had it backwards. The hijackers the ones who are highjacking technical and educational discussions - not friendly chit-chats.

What I think the NAWCC needs to do is decided whether it just want a friendly, lighthearted discussion group with no specific focus or mission statement on education or, if it really wants education as the primary mission objective.

At the moment, the NAWCC MB is in fact "schizophrenic" - it has two different minds but only one official identity and they do not match. When those two different identities cross path, conflicts arise. It's a bit like a state that claims to be secular and impartial, but bends to the whims of religious guardians who censor all secular discussions that reveal religious bias.


Michael

[Hoos]

Originally Posted by Veritas

I think the bottom line is there has to be rules, of how people act here and it has to be enforced.The rudeness and other goings on here are not helping to change people,s minds that the NAWCC is a good organization to join.I think this message board is what helps attract people to the hobby.If you yell at people every day and call people names, they won,t be comming back here.

I think there's some validity to this.

I'd also add that it helps if one has a thick skin.

Shortly after I paid my dues, I received what was IMHO a non-helpful response to a post. It actually served to keep me off the site for a few days thinking "I don't need to be exposed to that kind of stuff."

But my interest in timepieces plus the kindness on some chapter boards along with the wealth of knowledge that is here on the NAWCC board got me over that bad spot.

It also made me look for and appreciate that the forums here have an "ignore" feature. I've found that feature to be helpful at times.

I appreciate the folks here and the knowledge they have. But I don't appreciate ungentlemanly nor ungentlewomanly behavior and see no need to tolerate that. If using the "ignore" feature accomplishes that, great. If it's terribly egregious, then reporting the post is a great option to have.

[BILL KAPP]

Why should you renew your membership in the NAWCC? Because for the collector, it is the focal point for your horological interest. You wouldn't quit a golf club because you didn't like all the members, why apply a different standard to any other hobby?

I wrote a short essay on the subject on the chapter 52 website located at http://williamkapp.tripod.com/id54.htm


happy hunting,

[Scottie-TX]

Much like BILL, and possibly a rerun for some, but I have always and probably always will - support the organization or interest I'm in. They support me. Such as CWA union supported me on the job. Like the ARRL supports amateur radio operations and operators - their voice in Washington. So it is for me, here. I support the NAWCC and MB because they support - are aligned with - my interests - here, and internationally.

[northcoastimports]

Definitely agree with Bill. More or less what I was trying to say: "Don't let a few people on the forums bum you out. Because of the nature of forums, rough (or perhaps uncomfortable) conversations come with the territory."

Michael, I'm afraid you read quite a bit into my post. Sorry I must have been too vague. Naturally non-personal disgreements are important to a lively discussion.

And, if it's any consolation, this conversation comes up in every forum and the enforcement and interpretation of the rules is always difficult.

It's a rough job to be a monitor. You guys do good work.

[Kent]

Originally Posted by Ansomnia

...
****

At this point, I will try be helpful and say what I believe the real problem is with this MB.

The MB claims to be about horological education but what management actually does is promote a community chat group primarily to foster friendly, lighthearted discussions that are not necessarily horologically accurate, objective or educational.
...
Michael

Michael:

I disagree with your viewpoint of our message board. I feel that management does promote "... horologically accurate, objective or educational ..." horological material. I wonder if you have seen the Wiki articles on American Pocket Watches, European Pocket Watches or Watch Cases (to point out a few). Our message board management has worked very hard to create the venue in which these are located.

Nor do I feel that management tries to "... promote a community chat group primarily to foster friendly, lighthearted discussions ..." Hardcore horological facts are discussed in detail (by expert researchers) in the threads linked to in the Illinois Watch Co. threads, Hamilton Watch Co. threads and Past Pocket Watch threads posts. Although the information isn't collected and indexed in the European & Other Pocket Watches forum, a search of the forum will bring out horological data, backed up by pictures of examples, that is not available elsewhere.

I do agree that there are "... friendly, lighthearted discussions ..." (and yes, some very unfriendly posts), but detailed, authoritive discussions take place. Also, most newcomers receive a very positive impression of the NAWCC and its message board when they come looking for information about their family, or newly acquired, watches.

[Ansomnia]

Originally Posted by northcoastimports

Definitely agree with Bill. More or less what I was trying to say: "Don't let a few people on the forums bum you out. Because of the nature of forums, rough (or perhaps uncomfortable) conversations come with the territory."

Michael, I'm afraid you read quite a bit into my post. Sorry I must have been too vague. Naturally non-personal disgreements are important to a lively discussion.

And, if it's any consolation, this conversation comes up in every forum and the enforcement and interpretation of the rules is always difficult.

It's a rough job to be a monitor. You guys do good work.

northcoastimports, I appreciate your effort to qualify your statements. I think this points out the dangers of making vague statements or not qualifying one's statements...again ironically, on a messageboard. I wasn't "reading ...into (your) post" - I simply explained the implications of what you wrote. I am familiar with the problems you alluded to regarding online messageboards but I do not agree that all MBs endure the same level of discord.

****************

Here again, is my assessment of the problem and some additional advice.

The problem has to do with the NAWCC Messageboard Forum's stated mission of "Horological Education". IMO, the NAWCC MB is clearly not achieving this goal with its MB, at least not in everyone's minds. By incorrectly setting people's expectations, the NAWCC is designing its messageboard to be controversial and to fail.

The NAWCC claims this site educates people but when knowledgeable people stick their necks out to explain and inform people on important horological issues, they get shouted down. Many people get upset and animosity is created. This is just one example of why this MB isn't educational.

If the NAWCC promotes this messageboard as horological education it needs to first serve as the ONLINE educational STANDARD and AUTHORITY. This is what I mean:

If someone claims to be providing education, he is in fact declaring himself to be a teacher. His students are going to expect to learn either the facts (i.e. truth) or the correct way to discover the truth (i.e. facts) from this teacher. The teacher cannot teach students by opening a classroom and letting the students argue amongst themselves in order to arrive at the facts. All he will get are arguments and fights. In an educational organization, there has to be an educational authority, an expert or an ultimate opinion on educational matters.

Unfortunately, our muddle-headed liberal ideas (many inherited from our screwed-up 1970s) leaves people to do whatever "feels good" to them. That is not education. Horology is not a social discovery process; it is a science and has clear historical facts that cannot be changed for the sake of convenience.

The NAWCC MB does not provide an ONLINE educational authority. When disputes break out on message forums, management either tries to ignore them hoping they die down or go away, or it appears to take arbitrary sides depending on SUBJECTIVE SENTIMENTS - in effect, it does whatever "feels better" for them to do.

While I do not deem this right or wrong, it is also neither objective nor educational.

Either the NAWCC gets serious about active and objective educational involvement in online discussions or it should abandon the insistence on the "education" aspect and call its MB "Horological Discussions" instead.

There is nothing wrong with downgrading the ONLINE emphasis to align with reality. The NAWCC offers its own series of high quality hands-on courses. It does not have to insist its ONLINE messageboard is also educational. By nature, messageboards are not effective educational tools because they are not structured enough and they are impossible to police. Participants are not even paying for the education so they are not even qualified students. Their motivation may only be 5 seconds worth of "ranting".

I would also suggest the NAWCC assemble a separate, purely technical forum whereby people with strong views on educational issues post their own threads (in effect, submit "mini white papers") on technical matters so they have a way of airing their disagreement or support for purely educational concepts. Such a technical forum would have a higher standard (raising the bar) for submissions. Posters need to provide citations when citing facts or other people's material. The higher standards reduce the likelihood of spurious claims which can incite unresolvable arguments. Moderators should throw out claims that are not substantiated or actively engage in the discussion and indicate to readers that the claims are not substantiated. This will allow people to clearly choose a lighthearted social discussion arena or engage in purely objective horological issues. BTW, this is one reason why scientists and professionals are not expected to behave the same way as everyone else (they are clearly different and this difference in mindset echoes across many arenas and unwittingly unresolvable problems in the world).

The NAWCC needs to recognize there are clearly at least 2 distinct sets of often-conflicting interests, if not distinct groups of people using its ONLINE resources. By incorrectly bundling everyone in one inconsistent and unmanageable venue, it unwittingly creates fertile grounds for "collisions" and discord.


Michael

[harold bain]

Michael, as always, you make some good points, worth discussing. I don't think the purpose of the message board is to be an online education center, in the sense of having only teachers with impeccable credentials allowed to respond to questions. And possibly calling it that is a misnomer.
I think calling it an information center might be closer to what we are, or as you say, discussion center (or message board).
I would like to think that wrong information is responded to, politely, by those who have better information, with references to the source of their information. There is no, and should be no shame in giving a wrong answer. Many questions really have no right answer, just opinions. These opinions lead to discussions. These discussions often lead to great information being found.
This thread falls into the discussion category.
Personally, I feel that the message board HAS been a source of education. I have learned a lot from it, and I'm sure even our recognized experts have learned from the message board members.

[BILL KAPP]

Michael,

"The problem has to do with the NAWCC Messageboard Forum's stated mission of "Horological Education"

You raise some fascinating points, but it seems to me to be off topic as to why someone should renew a membership.

Maybe it deserves its own thread.

happy hunting,