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  1. #16

    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: lmester)

    I agree with the other replies. I don't think this is a quartz movement. If it were quartz, there would be no reason for the balance. The quartz crystal is regulating it. The first two pictures are of similar looking movements. I've had both of these apart and can verify that they are not quartz. There is no crystal just a simple one transistor circuit. You could be sure by looking at the circuit board on your movement. If it's quartz there will be a crystal and an I.C. to divide the crystal frequency down to get 1 second pulses. In newer movements the I.C. is just a blob of epoxy on the circuit board.

    I can't imagine why the manufacturer would label it as quartz?
    Lemme see if I understand.

    In a regular quartz, the rate is determined by magnetic impulses regulated by the crystal. (I'm clear about that.)

    In the clocks we're referring to here, the only thing the battery does is power the movement by providing juice to the electromagnet.
    The rate, as with any balance movement, is determined by the effective length of the hairspring. It needs no regulating crystal, and doesn't have one.
    Okay so far?

    Next question: doesn't the juice have to get to the electromagnet in intermittent pulses, rather than a steady stream? (As you can see, my knowledge in this area is really limited.) Or maybe I don't understand how dc motors work. Anyhow, if it is pulses rather than stream, what regulates the pulses? And don't their frequency have an effect on the rate of the clock?

    Please clue me in on this.
    1. Check out the Repair Hints & How-To's forum. You may find your answer there.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: bangster)

    Hi Bang
    Pulses are timed by the swinging magnet in most of these cases.
    As the magnet swings into the coil, a tickler winding caused the transistor to turn
    on. This causes a feedback loop that increases the feedback holding the current
    through the coil and causing the swinging magnet to increase speed. The initial
    feedback is limited in time by a capacitor ( usually ), timed such that it can only
    start the transistor. Once the magnet begins to move out of the field, a reverse
    voltage is picked up by the tickler winding. This causes the transistor to turn off
    and wait for the next passage of the magnet.
    This is very similar to the way the ATO clocks work, with mainly slight changes to
    allow it to work with silicon transistor, instead of germanium.
    Tinker Dwight

  3. #18
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Cheezhead)



    Here is a German Made Westclox with the movement made by Hermle. It appears that someone put some twists in the suspension spring while starting the pendulum as this one is not self starting. It works similarly to the Linden but is a simpler design. Note the hairspring inside the star wheel that functions as a slip clutch. The white plastic "C" shaped star wheel trip lever is barely visible under and below the star wheel. The pendulum has a rotational excursion of almost 2-1/4 turns or about 800 degrees. Also note the small size of the movement. The cost savings compared to a traditional mechanical movement must be immense!

  4. #19
    Registered User lmester's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Cheezhead)

    Bangster,

    Maybe a simpler but not entirely accurate way describe this. Look at the first movement in my post #13. You can see that the coil is made of red and green wire. It's actually two coils. A trigger coil (tickler in tinkers post) and an impulse coil. The trigger coil is used to sense the position of the balance. That's how impulse is provided at the proper point of the balance's rotation. When the magnets approach the trigger coil it causes the impulse coil to be briefly switched on.

    This circuit has only a few parts but it's operation is fairly complex. It does basically the same function as the escapement in a fully mechanical clock. In a mechanical clock you have an escape wheel and pallets. Only a few parts but for me the most complex part of a mechanical clock. If I remember correctly, you helped me get the lock and drop set on a 400 day clock when I was having problems with it.

    Finally, there has been a lot of discussion of this type of electronic movement in the electric clocks area.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: lmester)

    Hi
    There are two types of pendulum drives shown on these posts.
    Some are the single transistor drive that independently drives the pendulum,
    with no relation to the quartz time.
    The other, is like seen in #15, #18 and I think #7 that periodically have a method
    of self syncing to the pendulum and adding to the swing.
    You'll note that these have something that lets the pendulum pass by if it is on
    the wrong direction of travel and then push it in the right direction.
    The are mechanically driven by the quartz movement but still are not related to the
    time of the quartz movement.
    Tinker Dwight

  6. #21
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Tinker Dwight)



    Here is a German made Bulova quartz anniversary clock with a conventional size Hechinger movement that incorporates a clever self starting rotary pendulum drive. The upper gear with its tooth tips seen protruding from behind the kidney shaped lever is driven at 1 rpm by the step motor and engages with the lower gear, also behind the kidney lever. The kidney lever is free to pivot on the upper shaft and the lower gear turns on a stub axle. The kidney lever is shown in its resting position with the pointed portion aimed downward until the horizontal pin fastened to the suspension spring engages as shown between two gear teeth that stops the lower gear. Then the kidney lever begins to rotate CCW and pushes the horizontal pin to the right to rotate the pendulum until the horizontal pin becomes disengaged from the lower gear and by gravity the kidney lever swings back to its rest position to wait for the next push cycle. The pendulum ball cluster rotary excursion is about 1-1/2 turns.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Cheezhead)

    Here is a link to one I restored some time ago.
    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?8...ighlight=David
    David S

  8. #23
    Registered User lmester's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: lmester)

    I found the junk pendulum drive that I mentioned in the first post. They don't hold up very well. I put some oil on the pivots and was able to get it to run. It's sloppy and It rattles. The plastic bushings are worn out. The last picture is a similar motor made by Elgin. It's been running without problems. One of the few pluses of a quartz movement. It's sealed. I used the dome from this clock on a mechanical clock. It's sitting on a shelf in my workshop. Dust all over it and it's still running.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Quartz fake torsion 001.jpg   Quartz fake torsion 003.jpg   Elgin quartz fake torsion 006.jpg  

  9. #24
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: lmester)



    This is an anniversary clock pendulum drive that came to my mind when at first with no photo, Mr. Imester described one as being junky. This clock is branded Timex with a Shinfuku quartz movement. Please be aware of the missing hairspring that would normally be located immediately underneath the upper bearing, connected to the pendulum shaft and to the bottom end of the white lever. The white lever oscillates left and right, pulling and releasing the hair spring to rotate the ball cluster. The hairspring provides compliance for overshoot and undershoot to give sufficient pendulum rotation.

    A problem with this design is that the forces provided through the hairspring to oscillate the pendulum are too low relative to the friction presented from the lower and upper bearings. Even some graphite on the lower and upper bearings in addition to a little oil was not enough to overcome resistance to rotation to permit the pendulum to continue to oscillate for more than a few minutes. While attempting to remedy the situation, I ruined the hairspring and removed it. The solution may be a separate battery powered pendulum drive from Merritts for under 10 dollars. Mr. Imester may not approve but it may be my only easy option. It's a nice looking clock with red and yellow roses and green rose leaves on the white porcelain base and white porcelain dial.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Cheezhead)



    This wood and glass anniversary clock is branded Hamilton and operates the timing and pendulum from the step motor movement branded Haller 993. The pendulum operating mechanism, barely visible through the translucent movement cover appears to be similar to a conventional windup alarm clock escapement. Through a slip clutch the step motor turns an escape wheel that operates a pallet fork that operates the pendulum instead of a balance wheel. Note the pendulum control hairspring below the quartz movement case. The Haller design pendulum suspension like a Haller GTB would not stay running until a little powdered graphite was added to the freshly oiled upper and lower pivots. The mounting feet needed experimentation by shimming them with playing cards until the pendulum would reliably run. Note the pendulum locking lever for transport.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Cheezhead)



    This anniversary clock is branded Dunham and was made in West Germany. Both the quartz step motor operated timing movement, branded UTS, and the pendulum drive run from the same AA battery. The pendulum drive design is a variation of what Mr. Imester posted on 10-16-12, the main difference being that this one has a hairspring below the upper pivot bearing to control the pendulum excursion and the pendulum does not affect the clock timing accuracy. This pendulum drive is not self starting but does start with the slightest movement. It has been a reliable runner.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen. (By: Cheezhead)



    This is a Spartus model 6068 anniversary clock; measures 11-1/2" tall and was made in Louisville, MS. It has a Kienzle movement that runs from a single AA battery to operate both the timing geartrain and the pendulum. It runs very well with a pendulum excursion of about 1 turn. The star wheel runs at 1 rpm through a slip clutch and engages with a flag fastened to the torsion spring. Note the flag limit stop above the star wheel protruding from the back of the movement case. The limit stop keeps the flag where it will engage the next star wheel tooth no matter how far the pendulum rotates in the return direction. The flag rests against the stop when there is no battery power so the pendulum is self-starting. The clock is made almost entirely of plastic including the dome. A quality brand quartz movement such as this Kienzle with an elegantly simple and reliable pendulum operating mechanism deserves a better quality clock in which to hold it. It is, however, a clock that demands little from its owner; a new battery when needed and a time reset every few months.

    This is the last single battery operated quartz anniversary clock movement with pendulum drive that I will post as I have no other variations as of now. If I find another, I will post it here. I thank Mr. Imester for starting this thread.

  13. #28

    Default Post your quartz clock matters here (By: lmester)

    Surely the curse of most clock lovers, but a very common movement these days is the battery quartz type which seem to cost next to nothing (less then $5.00). I have a habit of finding really nice cases without movements, often for just a few dollars. Having neither the skill or resources to find a original movement and return the clock to it's original state - I do what some consider a sin and install a quartz. Just did this to a New Haven chiming clock - missing both it's movements & iron mounting bracket...at least it now tells time.

    Question; what should I look for in these in terms of getting durability and accuracy. And are there higher quality quartz movements which will last for many years ?

  14. #29

    Default Re: Quartz - Quality Levels (By: Ontime)

    I have a simple Youngtown (China) Quartz clock that's kept good time for almost 13 years now. Cheap it may be, it's run without any issues.

    I find the more complex a Quartz movement is, regardless of make (chimes, pendulum, moon dial), the shorter it's lifespan is.
    "Experience, Education, & Enjoyment." - Justin A. Olson

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Quartz - Quality Levels (By: chimeclockfan)

    I'd suppose to some extent price may be an indicator of quality. I see ABsolutely nothing wrong in turning an empty case into a clock with quartz. My interest in clocks began similarly except my mode was to equip them with modern springwound movements - mostly Hermle. In retrospect tho I now realize I might coulda found an original proper movement for less. However for me at that time that wasn't an option as I knew zilch about restoring old movements.

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