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  1. #31

    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: harold bain)

    Quote Originally Posted by harold bain View Post
    Eric, I wonder if putting a clock like this in a sturdy plastic bag, then filling the container with spray foam insulation around the clock, also in a bag, would guarantee a safe arrival?? Haven't tried this, and I don't know if it's expansion properties might damage the clock, but it may be worth experimenting. What do others think?? A can of this stuff would be under $10, and may be enough for several boxes/clocks.
    Downside may be removing it.
    Harold - I have worked with that stuff before to insulate into very small gaps around windows, doors, etc..... prior to hanging sheet rock. That stuff has amazing expanding powers and would "bow" the trim if the stuff was not given a place to expand out into as it cures. This foam would probably work. You'd want a sturdy box so that it would try to turn the square box into a round one. You would have to leave the top open and let it dry into a "muffin top". This can easily and cleanly be sawed off flat so that the box flaps would seal.

    Trouble is, a single can won't do it. I filled up a boat hull once prior to laying the floorboards back down. All in all, not a big space.... but it took dozens of cans to do the job.

    I have seen it mixed in bulk before. Someone that is more versed in chemistry than I could probably ID the ingredients.

    I heard that if you add some Viagra it really takes off
    The clock talked loud. I threw it away, it scared me what it talked. ~Tillie Olsen, Tell Me a Riddle

  2. #32
    Forums Administrator harold bain's Avatar
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: bajaddict)

    Just about everything you buy these days is either enclosed in bubble pack, or surrounded by preformed styrofoam that keeps it from moving in it's packing, from toys to televisions. If all clocks were the same size, molded foam could be made to fit. But for one clock, it's not worth the investment. The box wouldn't have to be very much bigger than the clock for the spray foam to be effective. But I would try it on a junker before using it on a clock of any value.
    I notice Hermle double boxes their new movements, as well as using preformed styrofoam that is a tight fit to the smaller box, around the movements. They fill the gap between the two boxes with peanut foam. Much better than what they used to use (a single box, with cardboard stays holding the movement in place).
    harold bain, Member ch 33
    "If it won't "tick",
    let me "tock" to it"

  3. #33
    Registered user. Scottie-TX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: harold bain)

    It is a shame and I'm not playing devil's advocate but from what I can see, that box was too small. This might have been avoided by packing that box inside a second, bedded in styrofoam peanuts.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: Scottie-TX)

    I tried using the spray foam and besides the mess (trying tokeep it confined to a specific area), it turns out pretty hard. With normal styrofoam, there is at least some cushion effect that tends to soften the blow. The foam is too hard, in my opinion.

    I think I'm going to stick with the peanuts, bubble-wrap and styrofoam.

    I did find a pretty reasonable source for packing materials. I cna get styrofoam panels, 4' x 2' from Home depot at about $6 for four panels. I use them between the boxes and they provide a great cushion and are easy to make fit any size box. Home Depot also sells packing boxes cheaper than anywhere else I've looked.

  5. #35
    Forums Administrator harold bain's Avatar
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: Bogey)

    Bogey, thanks for giving it a try. I wonder if there are different types of this foam? Or if they all have the same characteristics?
    harold bain, Member ch 33
    "If it won't "tick",
    let me "tock" to it"

  6. #36
    Registered user. Scottie-TX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: harold bain)

    Most I've seen seem to have very similar density. I can't say I'm a "green" zealot. I'd probly be better described as a miser but you'd readily agree my approach is environmentally friendly. I cannot possibly imagine how much styrofoam, bubl wrap, and peanuts are discarded daily. I can't recall the last time I paid for packing materials other than tape. It's free. It's all FREE!
    Furniture stores are probably the largest source of styrofoam and bubble wrap. I have a dumpster route that supplies me with all the peanuts, bubble wrap, styrofoam, and PERFECT fitting boxes. Boxes used for shipping medical stuff are usually VERY strong. Just a thought. Works for me.

  7. #37

    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: Scottie-TX)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottie-TX View Post
    Most I've seen seem to have very similar density. I can't say I'm a "green" zealot. I'd probly be better described as a miser but you'd readily agree my approach is environmentally friendly. I cannot possibly imagine how much styrofoam, bubl wrap, and peanuts are discarded daily. I can't recall the last time I paid for packing materials other than tape. It's free. It's all FREE!
    Furniture stores are probably the largest source of styrofoam and bubble wrap. I have a dumpster route that supplies me with all the peanuts, bubble wrap, styrofoam, and PERFECT fitting boxes. Boxes used for shipping medical stuff are usually VERY strong. Just a thought. Works for me.
    My wife dumpter-dives behind our local Furniture Row for a lot of packing stuff
    The clock talked loud. I threw it away, it scared me what it talked. ~Tillie Olsen, Tell Me a Riddle

  8. #38
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: etmb61)

    Bajaddict, I am SO sorry to hear of that happening to you. In your post (#7 above) you described not taking out insurance and stating that you might take heat for it. Well let me sympathize with you rather than give you heat - I know from personal experience that life is overwhelming sometimes. My poor mother has advanced Alzheimer's, and when I was involved with moving her to a safe care home and taking over her finances, health insurance, lawyer fees for power of attorney, and all that stuff I have to admit to more than my share of meltdowns and bad judgement. I am betting that given a different set of circumstances you WOULD have insured the clock and done things a bit differently. A moment of weakness is not always entirely your fault.

    I do NOT ship clocks often, but when I shipped an Atmos to Mike Murray for an expensive overhaul. I double-boxed it. I placed it inside a 16"x16"x16" cardboard box, with the Atmos wrapped in bubblewrap and surrounded by plastic peanuts. Then, I got some hard Masonite and cut five 16"x16" squares, and a pair of 8"x16" rectangles and GLUED them to the outside of the cardboard box, effectively armor-plating it (the two rectangles were for the top part that opens). Then, I put the whole thing into a 20"x20"x20" cardboard box, with lots more plastic peanuts between the inner armor-plated box and the outer box. That way, I figured if something punctures the outer box, the inner box stands a better chance of survival. Then I insured the whole thing for $2,000.00. Overkill, yep. But that's how I am sometimes. Your mileage may vary.

    Edit - the package got there fine with no mishaps, ditto for the return. The Atmos is still running fine and I still have the boxes, in case I ever ship something like that again.
    Last edited by cazboy; 12-20-2012 at 04:42 PM. Reason: consternation turns to lucidation
    Doug Haeussler, NAWCC #0167553 - Prescott Valley, AZ

  9. #39
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: cazboy)

    "Overkill" is not a word you need ICW packing and shipping. I do the same. I do recall shipping an ATMOS overseas and how I even made a shipping block better than the factory piece. I often make a masonite disk to match Vienna porcelain dials. Like yourself I also have made wooden gussets a supports insde the box to render it crushproof. Check Webster's; You won't find the word, "overpack". I made it up.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: Scottie-TX)

    The only thing I might add to Doug's packing job is to insure the movement is secure inside the case. I can't tell you how many clocks I have repaired that the customer had shipped to him/her and the package arrived looking great. When the box was opened, though it is discovered that the movement is loose inside the case. This usually happens when someone packs a wooden cased clock with the back of the clock down and there is nothing inside to support the movement when the box is dropped from the top of the Empire State Building. The box doesn't show any damage, so the shipping carrier is reluctant to accept a claim.

    I usually secure the pendulum and key elsewhere in the package and stuff the inside of the case with bubble wrap. It is important to make sure you don't overstuff it and damage the suspension or chime rods/gong. Then I place the clock in the case right side up. When I take it to "This Side Up" stickers all around the top of the box. So far, I haven't had any damage since I've started doing it this way.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: Bogey)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogey View Post
    The only thing I might add to Doug's packing job is to insure the movement is secure inside the case. I can't tell you how many clocks I have repaired that the customer had shipped to him/her and the package arrived looking great. When the box was opened, though it is discovered that the movement is loose inside the case. This usually happens when someone packs a wooden cased clock with the back of the clock down and there is nothing inside to support the movement when the box is dropped from the top of the Empire State Building. The box doesn't show any damage, so the shipping carrier is reluctant to accept a claim.

    I usually secure the pendulum and key elsewhere in the package and stuff the inside of the case with bubble wrap. It is important to make sure you don't overstuff it and damage the suspension or chime rods/gong. Then I place the clock in the case right side up. When I take it to "This Side Up" stickers all around the top of the box. So far, I haven't had any damage since I've started doing it this way.
    Excellent point, well stated. Similarly, I once bought a Gilbert Curfew clock on eBay. During shipping the movement tore loose from the case. The clock was literally totaled beyond repair. The box was undamaged. The extensive damage caused wasn't UPS's fault, it was because the seller didn't realize it could happen. Fortunately for me the seller accepted responsibility and gave me a full refund. UPS returned it to the seller at no charge to me.

    The rule of thumb in any insurance claim is whether the box is damaged or not. In this (the OP's) case it is obvious that the shipping box sustained an impact. That is the liability of the shipping company (which is why anything valuable needs to be insured by the seller).

    In my experience: USPS is the most red tape ridden shipper regarding claims. The government has a rule or a regulation for everything imaginable. The person holding the receipt (the seller) is the one to file the claim. I had an uninsured clock that was shipped to me that USPS delivered when I wasn't home, leaving it on my porch. Apparently it was stolen. USPS refused to pay anything because it was uninsured. It tried suing them in small claims court and lost. Why? Because you can't sue the U.S. government. After that incident I installed a self locking mailbox to provide secure delivery of mail and parcels. But now, often their dumb mail carriers won't close the box fully enough to lock it, despite a notice in big letters on the front of the box to close it firmly.

    In the world of the US Postal system the phrase "throw the mail" is actually said. Apparently they take that phrase literally.

    Another clock I bought on eBay (that was insured) was a Gilbert Westminster banjo clock. The idiot seller used virtually no packing at all in the box. That one was smashed to pieces. USPS rightfully recognized it to be the seller's liability and refused the claim, which the seller needed to file. I returned it to the seller who was in denial and intransigent. EBay denied my claim and refused to pay me anything! Thank God I paid for it by credit card, not PayPal. I filed an appeal with Citibank and they gave me a full refund through a chargeback.

    Remember that: when buying anything of value to be shipped, always pay by credit card. It's your best defense against an irresponsible seller and packer of the shipped item. Regardless of the nonsense of the early days of eBay, it is the responsibility of the seller/sender to purchase shipping insurance, not the buyer.

    UPS is pretty good about damage claims. I had one item that I shipped that was a 1/4 inch thick stone disc, simply secured in thick cardboard on both sides and clearly marked fragile. It won't break unless it is dropped. Apparently that's how it got broken. Despite the parcel being unscathed they did pay me on the claim. With UPS, items under $100 are automatically insured and everything is tracked.

    As another mentioned:
    But here's the nice part of using FedEx... insurance is free for the first $100 in value and is only cents on the dollar after that. PLUS a tracking number is included with every package, again, free of charge. Any time I have been forced to use the USPS or UPS, and damage has occured, it has taken months to get resolution (6 months with the USPS).
    FedEx and UPS are similar - but USPS is the worst.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: harold bain)

    This happened to me once. It was a nice Vienna. They demolished it. I now do as Scottie and others said and double box every clock I ship. The outside box should have at least two inches between it and the inside box on all six sides, and foam or bubble wrab tight between the two boxes. I have never had a problem with a clock since I started packing that way.I charge the buyer for the extra work.

    Will
    Will Walker (WOW)

  13. #43
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: wow)

    In my experience ALL the shippers are bad: Post Office, UPS, AND FED EX. They make NO attempt to handle your stuff with even reasonable care. The people who suggest the masonite and rigid foam reinforcements to boxes are thinking right. And always double box.

    As for insurance, it's a total joke. Case in point. I spent a lot of time restoring a really neat old RCA Victor 45 rpm record changer. I packed it very, very well when I shipped it to a fellow and took out the insurance. When it got trashed....oh boy....according to FED EX it was ALL MYfault and I practically had to threaten to burn down one of their facilities to obtain my claim money. It was a good six weeks of jumping through hoops, and fighting with people on the phone for a lousy $145 claim.

    It wasn't the money. It was the fact that this nice little record player was fine since 1949 --- until the day Fed Ex got their little gorilla mitts on it. Then - RUINED! What idiocy!

    Apparently to these shippers it's a more efficient business model to jerk around a customer and spend endless hours fighting with him rather than: 1) try handling the package sensibly and 2) simply just honoring a legitimate claim for a package they darned well know they destroyed.

    It's business practices like this that make you sick to your stomach and you also know why other countries are eating us for lunch. Why should we consumers have any sort of loyalty to a company that treats you like that? I can probably count on one hand the companies I feel are outstanding and back up what they purport in advertisements.

    I feel for the loss of your nice clock. It's a darned shame.

    Mark

  14. #44
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    Default Re: What a shame - absolutley sickened (By: Mark Williams)

    We have shipped things all over the world back in the eBay days and even managed to get a glass dome for a 400 day clock we picked up in Florida home to Ca in our checked soft sided baggage so packing is something we are somewhat good at.

    Newspapers crumpled up and packed in seem to be very good material as it gives good cushion and maintains pressures in all directions and can be used to wrap items for general protection.

    White foam holds things in place but offers little to no cushion, not good for fragile things but okay for filler.

    Last check before sending is to shake the box and confirm it acts as a solid chunk, any movement or sounds require a repack.

    if anything moves in any way then Newton will act on it and cause destruction.

    Lots of room between item and outside as many things get squished and dropped.

    double boxing helps as well, there needs to be 3 inch minimum on all sides and more if the item inside center is heavy, the packing between the 2 boxes needs to be firm but not solid as this is the cushion for drops and slams.

    The inside box converts the assorted parts and items into a single cube, the material between the inside box and outside box needs to have some give to allow the inside box to move a bit to absorb shock loads and resist the squishing that happens when it is on bottom of the pile.

    If it is something that is glass or can be crushed then make darn sure there is a lot of room between the item and any side or corner.

    A chunk of plywood can be used for additional support if needed.

    The added weight for properly packing does not add much cost at all, and few if any customers who are paying the bill would risk the item by cheaping out on the shipping.

    We have used USPS as well as UPS, ALWAYS insure item regardless of who what where as the insurance sticker on the outside of the box may be an indicator to be careful...or not...

    For fragile things we ALWAYS used UPS as we could use larger well suited boxes and the cost was based on weight and distance, if it was not breakable it went cheapest carrier.

    A side note is regarding "porch pirates", lately lots of folks have been on the news as cameras collecting video of people snatching freshly delivered items.

    FedEx and USPS are the worst as well as many un-named carriers that Amazon uses in that they toss the box on your porch and run, they are too lazy to even ring the doorbell.

    UPS on the other hand requires a signature, and there is rumor of them maybe having option to drop it on the porch, and they also have a form that the receiver can sign authorizing the driver to leave it on the porch.

    When shipping always confirm a signature will be collected, simple state that no signature is no delivery PERIOD!

    Be sure the receiver gets the tracking information as well as insurance confirmation as well as making it clear that as far as you are concerned "NO SIGNATURE IS NO DELIVERY" .

    This means that until they sign for the package it is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, it is under SHIPPER'S control until they sign for it (insurance is in place) or if dropped on the porch the insurance stops at that point and it is the customers responsibility.

    This must be made crystal clear before shipping takes place, we always quoted shipping for the packed weight and insured for sold price as the "bill of sale" clearly establishes value.

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