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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: johnbscott)

    John, I believe that you probably misinterpreted double swell. That term applies to the minute hand on Fred Hansen's B060842, pictured in post #10. I have never seen a double swell hand paired with anything but a spade hour hand. I strongly doubt that the spade hand would be a sub-group of the double swell, since the spade is far more common and made in more variants than the double swell.

    The "whip" hand (no -lash) was also very popular as a minute hand on railroad watches, particularly with bold dials, and is usually paired with a heavy spade hour hand. It was used extensively on Waltham 18-size and 16-size railroad watches.

    Not too many years ago, Jeff Hess posted some minutes of conferences that Webb Ball held with his inspectors. I recall that there was an interesting exchange between Ball and one of his inspectors where the inspector pointed out why many inspectors prefer the whip minute hand with the heavy spade hour hand., instead of the spade minute hand that Ball used. It may have had something to do with the ease of distinguishing between the spade hour hand and the whip minute hand. It has been a while since I read that thread, and I'm not sure of the details! I had bookmarked Jeff's thread, but lost the bookmark when that computer crashed. I'll have to try to dig up that thread sometime when my patience is up to using the search function on this MB; that will probably be around the time that Hell freezes over. <];>)

    Late news flash! I just found several pages of hand styles illustrated, along with their names. They are in de Carle's Watch & Clock Encyclopedia, alphabetically under "Hands". There are 91 different pairs of hands; In my edition they are listed by name on p.146 and keyed numerically to illustrations on pp.147-149. I believe I have seen the same illustrations elsewhere.

    Larry Treiman

  2. #17

    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Larry Treiman)

    A couple of further pieces of relevant information that have just turned up are as listed, below.


    1. The Ball Watches Material Catalog lists Blue or Wine Color Hands, 16 and 18 Sizes so the observed brown color of the early Ball hands that is referred to in the foregoing is probably that described by Ball as Wine Color.
    2. On 21 July 2004, at what was then the International Horology Chapter site of NAWCC, Jack Goldstein reported his ownership of B060778 having 17J, an addition to the serial number listing that we are assembling.


    The list now becomes:
    B060706 - Pendant Set
    B060713  Pendant Set
    B060768 - Pendant Set
    B060771  Setting unknown
    B060773 - Pendant Set
    B060778 - Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
    B060809 - Lever Set (Reported, but not seen by KLS)
    B060812  Pendant Set
    B060841 - Pendant Set
    B060842  Pendant Set
    B060863  Lever Set
    B060869  Setting unknown
    B060915 - Lever Set
    B060972 - Pendant Set
    B061018  Setting unknown
    B061060  Pendant Set
    B061063  Setting unknown
    B061099  Setting unknown
    Last edited by johnbscott; 11-10-2012 at 12:48 AM.

  3. #18

    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: johnbscott)

    A further snippet of information about these first run Ball-Waltham ORRS watch movements is that they had fixed bankings. Later runs had the adjustable threaded circular banking pins conventionally found on American watches, including Waltham. I trust that the photograph will sufficiently well illustrate the fixed bankings of the first run Ball-Waltham ORRS.
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    Last edited by johnbscott; 12-23-2012 at 06:49 AM.

  4. #19

    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: johnbscott)

    Two more of these first run Ball-Waltham ORRS watches have surfaced. These two have movements that are numbered, respectively, B060708 and B060729.

    So the list now becomes:
    B060706 - Pendant Set
    B060708 - Setting unknown
    B060713 – Pendant Set
    B060729 - Pendant Set
    B060768 - Pendant Set
    B060771 – Setting unknown
    B060773 - Pendant Set
    B060778 - Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
    B060809 - Lever Set (Reported, but not seen by KLS)
    B060812 – Pendant Set
    B060841 - Pendant Set
    B060842 – Pendant Set
    B060863 – Lever Set
    B060869 – Setting unknown
    B060915 - Lever Set
    B060972 - Pendant Set
    B061018 – Setting unknown
    B061060 – Pendant Set
    B061063 – Setting unknown
    B061099 – Setting unknown

    We are now at 5% of the run of 400 watches.

    JBS

  5. #20

    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: johnbscott)

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?3...d+waltham+ball

    not sure if this is germaine but....

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Jeff Hess)

    Bumped to top to facilitate suggested transfer of information and possible photos re "first run" 16-size Waltham Ball B060809 from thread "Just for FUN. Side x Side WALTHAM......" to this thread by poster Paul Sullivan, if he wishes to do so.

    Larry

  7. #22
    Registered User Paul Sullivan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Larry Treiman)

    Ball-Waltham 16s ORRS, ser. no. B060809, 17j, LS circa 1900.

    Case and dial.


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    "Windsor Guaranteed 20 yrs. B.W.C.Co."

    Hard to see here, but under a 10x loupe I can make out a "B" before the "..W.C.Co.". Consulting Kent's article in the encyclopedia under Case companies, the "Windsor" was made between 1902 to 1907, which fits in with the production date of the movement of about 1900. I can see no other screw marks on the case.

    The case back has only 4 service marks. Two are along the outer edge and are the more familiar series of numbers, but as seen in the photo, two are dated and initialed as follows: 3-3-67 and 2-26-73 with what appears to be a stylized "RW".



    Movement:





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    Train bridge: "Ball & Co. Cleveland, O." and "17 Jewels".

    Barrel bridge. "RR" plug, "Trade mark Official Standard", "Adjusted", ser. no. "B060809", "Pat. Nov. 17. 96."

    In the detail of balance cock, whip regulator and pallet bridge. "Sapphire Pallets" on the main plate, and pallet bridge has no gold tip for the pallet pinion as opposed to Timebandit's" 21j ball-Waltham.


    Many thanks to Larry Tremain for pointing out this "forgotten" watch in my collection! Thanks also to Kent's encyclopaedia articles on "RR Standards" and also "Watch case companies" where I was able to date my "Windsor" model case.

    regards,

    Paul
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    Last edited by Paul Sullivan; 09-02-2013 at 11:21 AM. Reason: correct serial number typo

  8. #23

    Thumbs up Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Paul Sullivan)

    Paul:

    Thanks for sticking with this and posting such nice, clear pictures!
    Kent
    That guy down in Georgia

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Kent)

    Ken,

    I really enjoyed looking into this watch, and I learned allot also. Thank God for digital cameras and "cropping" (the poor mans zoom)!

    Regards,

    Paul

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Paul Sullivan)

    Paul,

    The photos look great and are a valuable contribution to an interesting thread.

    Now, IF ONLY someone could come up with a clear, sharp (i.e., recognizable) photo of one of those elusive 23-jewel Ball ORRS that the Gray Book says are supposed to be in that run!

    I doubt that one will show up in MY lifetime, or that one even exists. If there ever was such a watch, it probably would have been a sample/prototype for a 16-size Waltham 23-jewel watch, and not just a Ball. Is anyone aware of a production-model 16-size 23-jewel Waltham (not a Ball or an "experimental") before ser. no. 9,060,701? Tom??

    Larry Treiman

  11. #26

    Smile Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Larry Treiman)

    Hang in there Larry, it may yet show up.

    After all, who would think that there is a 16-size, 3/4-plate Ball watch built by Rockford. Yet I have seen this one as a partial movement. I think that it was a 17-jewel watch. Jeff Hess had it and I think that the missing plate was eventually replaced with one cut out of acrylic (possibly to ensure that nobody would think that it was original - I believe that a typical Rockford plate would have fit).
    Kent
    That guy down in Georgia

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Kent)

    Yeah, that was why I threw in that bit about how if a 23-jewel Waltham Ball ever turned up, it would probably turn out to be a prototype or sample....just to cover my tush. I should have added "unsolicited by Ball," given his feelings about high jewel counts.

    I would imagine that the Howard (Keystone) Ball 16-size, 3/4-plate 21-jewel watch that turned up was a sample/prototype also, but what about that (presumably) small quantity of 16-size Ball ORRS dials to fit Elgins that showed up on the S. LaRose sales list? Hmmmm, it just occurred to me that those 16-size Elgin Ball ORRS dials probably would have fit an Ingersoll-Trenton Ball if one ever turned up. Darn, I should have tried to buy one before Roy Ehrhardt reportedly cornered the market! <];>)

    Larry Treiman

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Larry Treiman)

    Waltham-Ball # B060836 / 17J / pendant set

    While looking for more first run Waltham-Balls on line, I came across this one at watchuseek. I contacted the member and received permission to post his pictures and information on the watch. He is a Swiss Ball collector, but did have this Ball pocket watch:


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    Here is part of the reply

    "...you are correct, my Ball Waltham's serial # is B060836 / 17J / pendant set.
    It is not an original case, this one I believe is a "loaner", marked "Ball Model".
    Posting the pics is not a problem. I'm glad to help........"


    1. B060706 - Pendant Set
    2. B060708 - Setting unknown
    3. B060713 – Pendant Set
    4. B060729 - Pendant Set
    5. B060768 - Pendant Set
    6. B060771 – Setting unknown
    7. B060773 - Pendant Set
    8. B060778 - Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
    9. B060809 - Lever Set
    10. B060812 – Pendant Set
    11. B060841 - Pendant Set
    12. B060842 – Pendant Set
    13. B060863 – Lever Set
    14. B060836 - Pendant Set
    15. B060869 – Setting unknown
    16. B060915 - Lever Set
    17. B060972 - Pendant Set
    18. B061018 – Setting unknown
    19. B061060 – Pendant Set
    20. B061063 – Setting unknown
    21. B061099 – Setting unknown

    I updated the list (changed my 060809 to a definite LS) and inserted 060836.


    Paul

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Paul Sullivan)

    Good "catch" Paul.

    Too bad the loaner inscription is illegible, at least on my computer.

    When you say that he is a Swiss Ball collector, does that mean that he is a Ball collector in Switzerland, or that he specializes in Swiss-made Ball watches. If the latter, does he have any threads elsewhere that we can get a link to? Or maybe you can suggest to him that he post here, too.

    Larry

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research (By: Larry Treiman)

    Larry,

    He is a young collector (33) from the U.S. His public info. at WUS, outside of the Waltham-Ball, shows a Swiss-made Ball Fireman Victory, Zenith Pilot Big Date Special and Oris BC3 + wrist watches. I have already attached a link to this thread in the PM's I sent to him.

    Here is his entire reply:

    Hi Paul,
    Nice to meet you. I was actually thinking of joining the NAWCC. A guy I know, who deals in wrist watches and pocket watches: servicing/selling is a member.
    Anyway, you are correct, my Ball Waltham's serial # is B060836 / 17J / pendant set.
    It is not an original case, this one I believe is a "loaner", marked "Ball Model".
    Posting the pics is not a problem. I'm glad to help.
    I'll check out your post, I'm always interested in learning about the early Ball Company. Living 60miles from Cleveland in NE Ohio, I was just drawn to the company and its history.
    Lastly, you wouldn't know it's value? I have the 2012 Cooksey Shugart pocket watch guide, but I could never get a clear price. I know "Ball & Co. is rare, and a loaner case is not common, but not original. Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Dan
    "

    I believe this is his only pocket watch. Most folks at WUS are new wrist watch guys, and there only one sub-forum on vintage and pocket watches (almost no American PW's). I collect new Japanese Orient autos in addition to PW's, so I go there quite often. Hopefully he'll drop by with more information on his Ball.

    Paul

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