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  1. #1
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Question Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock!

    Hello everybody,

    I have received a (once) nice PHS (aka Teutonia) shelf cuckoo. Ca 1870 in date. Due to a shipping accident, the case became badly shattered and the former owner offered it to me in reasonable conditions

    The heavy single-fusee brass movement went through the dial and smashed it into splinters. Now I am struggling with it...

    Most parts of the case are there but columns and topper have vanished (maybe an openwork fence at the basement too) Have you ever seen a (more) complete similar case to have an idea on how they looked like, please?

    I know that there are PHS/Teutonia catalogues (original or reprints) available. Could you please take a look at them for if my case appears? There is number 34951 written on the label but I don't know if it corresponds to the model or to the individual clock.

    Many thanks in advance!!

    Aitor
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Case.jpg   Case-detail.jpg   Dial.jpg  
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  2. #2
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    What a shame! You don't see table cuckoos with fusees very often.
    This 1884 PHS catalogue listing is as close as I can get.
    The model numbers had three, four, or five numerals.
    I hope the picture helps you a little bit.
    Please do show us the movement and the result, when you're finished.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Jurgen "tempus nostrum"

  3. #3
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    Many thanks, Jürgen!

    The case was probably more complicated. I've been pointed to something like that on the poor image I enclose.
    Also goes a pic of the movement. Bird, pipes and bellows are missing too...

    Well, let's see from this point of view: were not for that disaster, I wouldn't have been able to get a clock of this level...

    Aitor
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Movement-front.jpg   Galerie4.JPG  
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  4. #4
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    A good shot, bullseye!
    The movement is quite well known (and reknown) and is described
    in Schneider's book Beha Uhren, page 348.
    What happened with the package, did it fall from the truck?
    Jurgen "tempus nostrum"

  5. #5
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    The old photo is also on Dr. Schneider's book, fig. 281 right. That case is not exactly like mine but it is very similar. Unfortunately, I cannot extract the information I need from it. That's why I turned here in search of more help.

    Eeerh, not only the movement is like that on 'Beha Uhren'... it is that very movement...

    No idea on what happened. The disastrous travel was from Great Britain to Germany towards the former owner. I bought the clock as it is now. Fortunately, the travel from Germany to Spain has been smoother...

    Aitor
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  6. #6

    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    Hi Aitor,
    Here are a few photos of a clock I have similar to yours. It is not marked so I can't say it is a PHS, but similar case design. I also do not hace the crest, but one was there at some point.
    Hope these help,

    Robin

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: oxblood2)

    The cases (fig. 281) shown in Schneider's book are from the casemakers company
    Gebr. Heer, Vöhrenbach (not Herr, Triberg - a clock and movement maker).
    Indeed, there were many specialized casemakers around, making ID difficult, because
    most clockmakers had (at least some) cases supplied.
    Schneider does point out i.e., that PHS fusee movements were often mistakenly considered Beha's
    in some former publications.

    As it is, I'm trying to ID a BF movement myself, with no results up to now.

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?8...Movement-Clues
    Jurgen "tempus nostrum"

  8. #8
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    About the About the Robin,

    Wow, that's it!! Many thanks!!
    Could you, please, post more detailed pics of the fence and columns? Also one of the solid fence at the back.
    I am puzzled about 'fence or not fence' in my case. There are no markings of anything glued to the basement top except two round markings. At first I thought. 'Well, the column bases' but, in second inspection, I realized that they aren't on the vertical of the missing columns at all...

    About the crest, does your case top have the imprint of something rectangular glued at the apex? (Besides the usual nail holes lining the outer border, marked with red arrows on my pic)

    Is also the movement inside a brass single fusee? Some details about the movement are being discussed here http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?86679-Is-it-bent.

    If anybody else owns a similar case or fragments, please, share them here. The more (information), the merrier!

    Jürgen,
    Many thanks for making details clearer BTW, Dr. Schneider is a very kind person, he has solved many doubts I posed him concerning my ancient cuckoos and i am very grateful for that.

    Very neat the clock you have posted on the other thread (Well, we architects usually like what other architects design, specially if they belonged to 'Bauhaus' or surroundings ) Unfortunately, I have never seen anything like that movement

    Aitor
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Label.jpg   Case-imprint.jpg   Case-top.jpg  
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  9. #9

    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    Aitor,
    Here are a few more photos. The plinth for the columns sit on the corner of the fence and do not go to the top of the base. This might be where there is some confusion. The columns are also a double twist and painted black like the the bases and capitals. The location of the capitals and the bases , if yours had them in the same location as mine, would have covered the bead molding along the verical front of your case.Look closely and see if you think the bead trim is original. With the trim on your dial and the more exspensive movement, I would think all the bells would have been put on the case, like a fence verse bead trim. If yours had columns , why cover the bead trim from site with the columns. Look also to see if the bead trim on the base looks original as that is where the fence would have been.
    The movement in mine is not a fusee and not marked. For some reason I can't the photo os it to download. I'll try later, but it is original to the case.
    If you need more photos let me know,
    Robin
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PICT0004 (2).jpg   PICT0002.jpg   PICT0003 (2).jpg   PICT0008.jpg  

  10. #10

    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: oxblood2)

    Here is the pinned movement,
    Robin

    Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    Many thanks again, Robin!

    The movement in my clock is unmarked too. Were not for the label at the back, only Dr. Schneider's trained eye would have been able to tell that it is a PHS!

    Well, the bead trim looks original, but I cannot tell you for totally sure. My case had columns beyond any doubt, though. There is one surviving capital (painted 'ebonised' black like yours) and traces of something glued (the column) to its base. Bear in mind that the columns are a short space apart from the dial surround and, therefore, the bead trim there wouldn't be totally obscured. (BTW, I notice that the lower moulding is missing from the dial surround from your clock, precisely where it would have been obscured by the fence, was ever a moulding glued there?)
    At the basement, there would be room for a fence behind the bead trim (If I have understood you correctly, the fence in your case is sitting exactly on the rebate where the bead moulding is in mine. Please, confirm this point) but it is the lack of anything glued there which totally puzzles me (Not to speak of that pair of senseless circular glue stains)

    Which is the height of your fence and columns? Are the columns cut from one piece of solid wood or are they made from two real twisted strands?

    I suspect that the firms made a lot of variants over the same basic model. Therefore, if any other similar case surfaces here, I would be little surprised to see differences

    Aitor

    PS. Now I see the movement, a nice one! My clock is lacking the bird. Does yours have the original one?
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  12. #12
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    Robin, yes your movement is from PHS, also listed in the Schneider Beha book
    (fig. 551).

    Aitor, the casemakers by then where in a process of standardzing, pushed by the
    Furtwangen School for Clockmakers.
    It looks like they had some standard bases and cases, which were mixed and matched
    with different applications. Similar bases to the ones shown here were used for larger
    and taller "cathedral" type cases too.
    Jurgen "tempus nostrum"

  13. #13
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: soaringjoy)

    That's why I was trying to tell, Jürgen, but I have not expressed myself properly
    The case-makers had several 'standard' elements at hand, but they made lots of different combinations with them, even inside what can be recognized as a rather definite case model.

    Aitor
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

  14. #14

    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: ballistarius)

    Aitor,
    The fence on mine is in the same place as the bead trim on yours. The only reason I brought this up is the with the lack of any decorative trims or molding at the base of the body of your case and where meets the base make for an unbalanced look(which is okay, just an observation). No transition from the body to the base. It just sits there.There is transititon from the roof to the body. The fence provides that transition. The width of the body of yours maybe wider than mine. If mine had the bead trim it would be hidden by the columns. Looking at the angle from your photos it may be hard for me to tell how much the columns are to the outside of that bead trim .The columns sit on the fence itself. The height of the fence is 2 1/4" and the columns are 7 1/4" including the base and capital. The columns are carved from one piece of wood and ebonized.
    Thanks for SJ for the ID on the movement. There looks to have been a label that has disappeared long ago.
    Good Thread!
    Robin

    Looking back at your photos.............Tis a mystery! The circle where something that looks like a column base does not match a to where the capital is at the top . Mine doesn't have the square header for the capital. Maybe this had a drop finial of some sort and a vertical finial at the side which would have balance the look?
    Last edited by oxblood2; 04-14-2012 at 05:45 PM.

  15. #15
    Registered user. ballistarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with PHS shelf cuckoo clock! (RE: oxblood2)

    Many thanks again, Robin!

    Your measurements add more to the mistery... Fence plus column in your case are 9 1/2" high... Well, in mine, there is 11 3/4" from where the bead trim sits to the attic (square header included) Therefore, my case must be bigger than yours. It measures 20" from gable to floor...

    I have been sent a pic of another fragmentary case of the same kind. Hopefully, I shall receive pics of more fragments from the same case, but it seems to be lacking many parts.

    My clock is lacking the bird, could you, please, send me pics froms yours?

    I agree, I am really enjoying this thread!

    Aitor
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Front.jpg  
    It's all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever. Steiner

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