When is it OK to make it better?

[bangster]

I doubt that there IS an all-original Deuce. They have all Met Their Destiny.

[Willie X]

Willie, that sounds a lot like an endorsement for switching out the original mechanical movement for a five dollar quartz movement. How do you determine which clocks are "cheap common clocks"?

I don't think I said anything about "switching out" but I do have a good example concerning that subject.

Several years ago a lady brought me a nice miniature porcelain Ansonia 1-day. The movement had been trashed by someone, hairspring pulled out wheels folded over, broken winding arbor, etc, etc. She was about to throw it away or send it to Goodwill. I did not give her a price for restoration because I made a judgement call and decided that she would probably keep and use the clock if it were more practical. So I measured it and gave her an estimate on replacing the destroyed movement with a fancy little German Quartz fit up. That customer still mentions that little clock every time I see her. She says that the little porcelain clock is one of her prize possessions and can't believe she almost threw it away.

So, in that instance, a Quartz fit-up saved a nice little novelty from the landfill and made me a customer for life. I'll take it!

Willie X

[jhe.1973]

Hi Everyone,

I guess this is a good place to post this. Clipped it from the newspaper (for you youngsters that's a paper product with ink stains that you can read like a LCD screen ) in 1975 and still have it with my bench.

[soaringjoy]

I believe, it's all a matter of your very personal attitude.

Take automobiles.
Owners of historical vehicles often want to keep them in an original,
near factory-built condition.
Others want to build a custom driving machine, a hot rod.
Take one of the American favorites, a Ford Model A.
I suppose, the stock version is enjoyable for all, the hot rod would be considered
nice by fewer.
Both have there own kind of charm.

[David S]

I think it should be a customer choice. If for some reason their clock has needed more frequent service that seems normal, then the repairer should present some options for improving durability. And I believe the repairer should also inform the customer regarding making any changes to the original character of the clock that could affect its value. Of course that could be hard to determine. A $50 clock today may be worth $1000 200 years from now. I believe good customer communication is key.
David

[Jay Fortner]

I wouldn't even consider straying to far from the original design. More like Jim said improve the original design but not appearance.
On my 1911 Ingraham Adrain the verge was half deadbeat,by bending the exit pallet and grinding a true impulse face in it,it made it full deadbeat,seemed to make the clock more consistant and gave it a longer run time.The only way you can tell it's not stock is by watching the EW in motion,no recoil. While researching this Herr chime clock I found several mentions of broken teeth on the strike side mainwheel with subsequent damage to the train farther up. By going to a short form tooth design and making it 25% thicker it would improve strenght while not being visually different. I feel there's a limit to changing from the original and that would be only to make it stronger and keep it out of the dump later when the same part broke again. On hindsight changing from recoil tp deadbeat would be taking it to far.
Jim, Ford had the flathead V8 in 1929 but never put it into production until 32',read an article about it in Hemmings Motor News years ago,they had a picture of it coupled to a Model A clutch and tranny. And that guy at the H-D dealer was a parts changer(you know what I mean).
Harold, I live by my signature and you know it

[Jay Fortner]

I think it should be a customer choice. If for some reason their clock has needed more frequent service that seems normal, then the repairer should present some options for improving durability. And I believe the repairer should also inform the customer regarding making any changes to the original character of the clock that could affect its value. Of course that could be hard to determine. A $50 clock today may be worth $1000 200 years from now. I believe good customer communication is key.
David

The only way it should be! I've replaced finishing nails that were holding the hands on because that was the way their grandaddy fixed it.

[Jay Fortner]

Here's one I forgot last night. On some New Havens and others as well they had a sync wire that was attached to the count lever so you could sync the strike without rotating the minute hand backwards and forwards,and lets say a clock comes in that has the loop in the count lever to accept the wire but that model didn't have that feature originally. This little mod has gotten me a lot of praise and of course it is totally reversible with no evidence it was ever there. Another problem clock is a W&H chime clock that the stop wheels on both chime and strike trains have teeth tore off. My theory for this is that the fans have heavy hubs and their inertia tears the teeth off when the stop hook drops to arrest the train. Using the short form tooth and making the gear 25% thicker would stop this from ever happening again. This clock was destined for the recycler when I rescued it from the guy that hauls off my scrap iron.

[bangster]

I believe, it's all a matter of your very personal attitude.

Take automobiles.
Owners of historical vehicles often want to keep them in an original,
near factory-built condition.
Others want to build a custom driving machine, a hot rod.
Take one of the American favorites, a Ford Model A.
I suppose, the stock version is enjoyable for all, the hot rod would be considered
nice by fewer.
Both have there own kind of charm.

The Model A Ford is a great machine, and many, many of them are being fully restored. I love seeing them. Relatively few Model A's were hot-rodded, since the frame wasn't built to take a V8 engine. As Jay says, first year for that was '32, which is why the Deuce was such a handy target for modification.

It was possible to sort-of hotrod the Model A four-banger, with a Winfield high-compression head and a few other doodads. But wasn't worth the trouble after the V8 became available.

PS: I think the Model A was the last production car to use gravity feed instead of a fuel pump. Right, Jay?

[bangster]

And getting back on topic, I'd like to suggest an amendment to the Fortner Principle; to wit:

Rule #1: Do no harm.
Rule #2: Do some good, when it won't violate rule #1 (very much).

[Jay Fortner]

And getting back on topic, I'd like to suggest an amendment to the Fortner Principle; to wit:

Rule #1: Do no harm.
Rule #2: Do some good, when it won't violate rule #1 (very much).

More like;
Rule #2 Do some good,when it won't violate rule #1 at all.

[Jay Fortner]

The Model A Ford is a great machine, and many, many of them are being fully restored. I love seeing them. Relatively few Model A's were hot-rodded, since the frame wasn't built to take a V8 engine. As Jay says, first year for that was '32, which is why the Deuce was such a handy target for modification.

It was possible to sort-of hotrod the Model A four-banger, with a Winfield high-compression head and a few other doodads. But wasn't worth the trouble after the V8 became available.

PS: I think the Model A was the last production car to use gravity feed instead of a fuel pump. Right, Jay?

Hmm, not many know of the police package for the Model A(closed chamber head and downdraft carb) I've heard tell that it would make an A run 90mph,never seen one in person but I have worked on one that would run 72mph,two door sedan with the tall rear gear.
Can't think of anything after 31 that was gravity feed,still better than a T that you had to back up steep hills.

[bangster]

More like;
Rule #2 Do some good,when it won't violate rule #1 at all.

The fatal flaw in the Florence Nightingale rule, taken as absolute: "Withhold treatment if it would do any harm, regardless of any offsetting good it might do." Don't amputate to remove the gangrenous foot. Don't administer chemotherapy. Don't remove a cancerous eyeball. And so on.

Sometimes you gotta do some harm in order to achieve a greater benefit. Same in clocksmithing as in medicine. "Don't treat for woodworm, you'll spoil the patina." "Don't solder new teeth into that wheel to replace the broken ones...you'll ruin the originality." Bah.

Is what I think. Weigh benefits.

[R. Croswell]

.........Sometimes you gotta do some harm in order to achieve a greater benefit. Same in clocksmithing as in medicine. "Don't treat for woodworm, you'll spoil the patina." "Don't solder new teeth into that wheel to replace the broken ones...you'll ruin the originality." Bah.

Is what I think. Weigh benefits.

This goes to defining the objective - repair, restoration, or conservation. True conservation is less concerned with whether the clock runs at all than maintaining strict originality. Replacement parts (if used at all) may even be painted to set them apart from the original. Restoration involves making the clock as nearly like it was originally as possible, including making it run. Now if the objective is a better running clock, then obviously some “improvements” on the original design are appropriate. It might be good for everyone to take a deep breath and reread the clock making standards piece that was recently posted at the top of this forum.



Customization is a whole ‘nother thing. Paint it red, white, and, blue. Put stars for numerals. Put in an electronic movement that will whistle the Star Spangled Banner on the hour if you like, but that’s not restoration or conservation. A work of art, maybe. Clever, possibly. Beautiful, well as they say that’s in the eye of the beholder. 500 hp in a Ford “T”, well……… if that’s your thing.

I have a friend who has a beautiful 1915 Mercer sportster. When he acquired it someone had made it a “better car” by installing hydraulic brakes and various other “improvements” to make it more drivable (it was used in the making of a movie The Great Race). They achieved their goal but greatly diminished the value of the car. My friend has spent years and much money putting everything back as it was including the mechanical brakes and some leather suspension parts. That’s his goal. It’s a beautiful car and very drivable (was supposed to do 110 mph stock when new in 1915, on wooden spoked wheels no less) but he is along in years now and doesn’t drive it often, nowhere near 110 mph.

So it’s not really so much what we do as what we want to accomplish that matters.

RC

[coldwar]

I add a second genuine parts click & spring assy to ST 113 winding sections if not already equipped - CW