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Thread: Elgin jewel

  1. #1

    Default Elgin jewel

    Looking for a little help here - I have an Elgin 16 size watch here that I believe is a grade 313. The serial number is 21,199,287. The upper escape wheel jewel is cracked, and I would like to obtain a new jewel in the setting if possible. I believe the factory number is 1368. The diameter of the pivot appears to be .225 mm or so.

    I found one at one of the suppliers, and he confirmed the grade and part number looked correct for the movement, but when the jewel arrived, the hole was too small. Did these watches come with different sized pivots on the escape wheels?

    In the Elgin information I looked through, there didn't seem to be anything that called for different pivot sizes, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.

    Any suggestions?

    Thanks in advance.

    Cheers, Al

  2. #2
    Registered User bkerr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: Al J)

    It is very possible that the staff may have been changed over the years resulting in a slightly larger pivot size. If you have a lathe just burnish the pivot and check the fit of the jewel. BTW leave the end stone out of the cock to check proper fit. Good luck

  3. #3

    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: bkerr)

    I believe there are several sizes of pivot (9, 10, and 11) for 16S Elgins.

    I would be surprised for it to be 22 (0.225 mm), but I could be wrong. Always possible you have a watchmaker made staff to fit a punched out hole jewel, or a custom fit, too.

    Peter

  4. #4

    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: psfred)

    Quote Originally Posted by bkerr View Post
    It is very possible that the staff may have been changed over the years resulting in a slightly larger pivot size. If you have a lathe just burnish the pivot and check the fit of the jewel. BTW leave the end stone out of the cock to check proper fit. Good luck
    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    I believe there are several sizes of pivot (9, 10, and 11) for 16S Elgins.

    I would be surprised for it to be 22 (0.225 mm), but I could be wrong. Always possible you have a watchmaker made staff to fit a punched out hole jewel, or a custom fit, too.

    Peter
    Thanks to you both for answering, but this is the escape wheel, not the balance staff. If it was the staff I would understand the discrepancy.

    So, do the escape wheel jewels come with different hole sizes like the staffs do?

    Cheers, Al

  5. #5
    Registered User bkerr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: Al J)

    Sorry for the quick typing finger and mix up on which wheel. I have to say that I have not seen this one but I would approach it like a staff. How close is the fit? Does the setting fit the plate? The other thing would be to look at the jewel color, does it match the replacement? If the od is good and the color is good I would work the pivot to fit the new jewel. Make sure you ahve endshake and that the pallet stones are centered on the EW.

    Keep us posted

  6. #6

    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: bkerr)

    Ah, that makes sense. Sorry I didn't catch that.

    Make sure you have the correct jewel for your grade, there may be differences. If there is a possibility that the basic movement was also made as a 19 or 21 jewel movement, you may have the hole jewel for the conical end escape wheel, and it will be much too small.

    I know, as I'm currently searching for the escape wheel I dropped for my 21J Elgin 450 -- the 17 jewel ones have a much larger pivot!

    Peter

  7. #7

    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: psfred)

    Quote Originally Posted by bkerr View Post
    Sorry for the quick typing finger and mix up on which wheel. I have to say that I have not seen this one but I would approach it like a staff. How close is the fit? Does the setting fit the plate? The other thing would be to look at the jewel color, does it match the replacement? If the od is good and the color is good I would work the pivot to fit the new jewel. Make sure you ahve endshake and that the pallet stones are centered on the EW.

    Keep us posted
    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    Ah, that makes sense. Sorry I didn't catch that.

    Make sure you have the correct jewel for your grade, there may be differences. If there is a possibility that the basic movement was also made as a 19 or 21 jewel movement, you may have the hole jewel for the conical end escape wheel, and it will be much too small.

    I know, as I'm currently searching for the escape wheel I dropped for my 21J Elgin 450 -- the 17 jewel ones have a much larger pivot!

    Peter
    Thanks again for the advice - Elgins I don't tend to work on very often, so still getting used to the grades etc. The pdf I have that gives Elgin serial numbers to grade numbers states that grade 313 started at 21,199,001, and ended at 21,201,000 and this watch falls within that range, so I'm not sure how else I could confirm the grade. So if anyone can confirm if this is correct, that would help thanks.

    I have looked in the 1915 master catalogue, and the grade 313 is listed as 15 jewel, which this watch is. It also says it's a 7th model and the class is 110 - not 100% sure what those refer to and what impact it might have on the jewel in question. It says the jewel for this spot is 1368 just as I have above, and that the OD of the setting is .096 inches which I just measured and that's what it is - I have not tried it in the plate but it looks like it would fit.

    The hole in this new jewel is quite a bit smaller than the pivot on the escape wheel, and the jewel is very dark and red where the old one is very pale - approaching colourless but it does have a red tint. I'm not sure I really want to mess with the escape wheel pivot if I can find a jewel that would work.

    I'm tempted to find a jewel with the right hole and make the chaton if I have to. But of course finding a part I can drop in would be preferred.

    Any ideas please let me know.

    Thanks, Al

  8. #8
    Registered User bkerr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: Al J)

    Al, if you have the od and can measure the id then you could friction one in or, call another supplier to see what they have and ask them to measure before they ship.

    You'll get it - I spent 12 hrs on a Waltham 83 and finally it is right.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Elgin jewel (RE: bkerr)

    Quote Originally Posted by bkerr View Post
    Al, if you have the od and can measure the id then you could friction one in or, call another supplier to see what they have and ask them to measure before they ship.

    You'll get it - I spent 12 hrs on a Waltham 83 and finally it is right.
    I think I have it. I went to an auction over the weekend and bought several jewel assortments, hoping something in there would be useful. I just spent an inordinate amount of time searching through jewels to find one that fit the pivot, and yes one was there that looked good. I then removed the cracked one from the chaton and replaced it with the new jewel. I just need to finish servicing the watch to see if it actually works.

    Looking good so far.

    Cheers, Al

    PS - used to work for Timken so drove to Canton all the time - drove right by you in Canal Fulton probably thousands of times.

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