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  1. #1

    Default Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel

    I am having trouble finding parts for this watch.
    I need a balance staff, Roller jewel and lower balance jewel to repair it.

    Any help locating these parts would be appreciated.

    tk

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: tkarter)

    From the information you have given, you are not likely to get any information, and if you do get some, there's a good chance it'll be wrong. Elgin made 21-jewel B.W. Raymonds in 18-size and 16-size and in various models and grades, often requiring completely different parts. Sometimes the required parts even change in the middle of a run of the same model and grade!

    To determine the proper parts, it is essential to give the complete and ACCURATE serial number found on the movement. From that, a person with a fairly complete Elgin master parts book can look up the grade number and then the part number, that is, if their parts book is late enough to include your watch. If there is a mistake in the serial number, well, just remember the "old" saying: garbage in = garbage out.

    There are people here on this MB who can look up the parts, and maybe even recommend sources. Give them what they need to work with, and maybe they can help you. Personally, I do not work on watches and therefore avoid giving advice on repairs.

    Good luck.

    Larry
    Last edited by Larry Treiman; 07-23-2011 at 01:19 AM.

  3. #3
    Registered User sderek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: Larry Treiman)

    Welcome to the message board.
    Whenever I need parts for an American pocket watch I start here: Be sure to give them the maker and the serial number.
    Bob McKnight: tbob45@aol.com
    Brian Cavanaugh: pwpartsetc@pwatch.com
    Bryan Eyring: bdeyring@hotmail.com
    This company sells the jewels in settings: http://www.qbstuff.com/AmWatchJewels.html

    If they don't have what you need, you may need to try:
    Daves Watch Parts- mainsprings, crystals (including hard to find bullseye crystals), parts for American pocket watches, parts movments, hands, watchmaker's tools.
    http://daveswatchparts.com/ dave@daveswatchparts.com

    or

    Mechanical Watch Supply LLC: http://mechanicalwatchsupply.com/ Look elsewhere 1st, because he admits he charges more, but he has rare and hard to find wrist and pocket watch parts. rd@mechanicalwatchsupply.com

    Let us know how it turns out.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: sderek)

    Serial is 27201257
    Grade 478 16 size.
    Thanks for some sources
    Tka

  5. #5

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: tkarter)

    The important thing is that your movement is a model 15.

    Balance staff 2532C. It is 5.32 mm long Balance seat is 1.10 mm Roller seats are 1.20 and 0.60 mm. Always confirm these numbers with the old balance. to make sure that I am correct.

    The roller jewel is selected to fit the specific watch. You want a short roller jewel with a double roller and you measure the distance between the pallet horns to get the diameter of the jewel. You want 0.01 to 0.02 mm smaller than the horn width.

    Once you have the balance staff, you need to select the balance jewel hole size to fit the balance pivot. It should rest on the pivot and tilt about 5 degrees.

    I assume you wanted the hole jewel. The 2086 and 2580 both are 2.43 mm in diameter. The 2086 is 0.46 mm thick, while the 2580 is 0.36 mm thick. They came in 0.11, 0.12 and 0.13 mm holes.

    I recommend that you give the serial number to the supply house to make sure. My Elgin reference material is not the best.

    Don

  6. #6

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: Don Dahlberg)

    Thank you as this is the first time I have had to fix one that had this issue. I have replaced balance staffs but never the jewels.

    This one has a hole broken through the lower balance cap jewel. The jewel is so messed up I don't think I can measure it properly.

    The roller jewel may still be in the watch. It was there when it got wound and the balance tried to run while face down. But it was missing when I pulled the balance cock.

    tk

  7. #7

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: tkarter)

    I had assumed you wanted the hole jewel. If you are looking for the cap jewel setting, the lower cap jewel appears to be the 1350.

    When I was giving dimension for the jewel, I was referring to the setting, not the jewel. I do not have the dimensions for the cap jewel setting. It appears that they only used one from model 6 on. I would like someone else to confirm this. I do not work with Elgin watches much.

    If you are a NAWCC member, you can write research@nawcc.org where we have more literature than I have at home.

    Don

  8. #8

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: Don Dahlberg)

    Thanks. I reckon this one is a learn as I go process. I may need some more nomenclature lessons on this watch.

    The bottom pivot was broken off the staff and the roller jewel was all that was keeping the balance from hitting the bottom.

    There is daylight that can be seen when looking down with balance removed.

    Other than that the watch is in fine shape.

    tk

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: Don Dahlberg)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Dahlberg View Post
    The important thing is that your movement is a model 15.

    Don
    [the above quote is just the opening line of Don's post #5 in this thread]


    Hi Don,

    I hope your opening statement in your first post to this thread, as quoted above isn't correct (the part about it being important) because it isn't a model 15. But how would you know that? After all, the Elgin data base says grade 478 is a model 15. Actually, information traceable to the factory indicates that the grade 478 was the 16-size, 31st model.

    I have no idea where that erroneous "model" information came from, but I have always been suspicious of its accuracy. To the best of my knowledge, the Elgin 1915 materials catalog was the last Elgin document intended for use outside the factory that used the cumbersome materials identification system involving model and class.

    In Roy Ehrhardt's Elgin "yellow book", the tables of data prepared by John D. Miller do not show model numbers for grades above 416 (c.1915). That was probably the highest number grade in the 1915 catalog.

    In Ehrhardt's later "....Beginning to End...." golden book
    he shows "model 20" for the grade 571 B.W. Raymond, but an asterisk leads to a note earlier in the book indicating that the number was assigned by researchers because no factory model number was known to exist. However, an internal Elgin document obtained by Kent Singer and posted on this MB not too long ago (if memory serves), shows that the grade 571 BWR is actually the 16-size, 47th model. The Elgin site shows that it is the 20th model, the number assigned by researchers!

    Don, I have been bringing this up for some time now on this MB, but it is finally getting through my thick skull that it is futile. I can't recall if any of my past posts on this subject even generated any discussion, which is particularly discouraging. I get the impression that most of the people frequenting this MB don't give a rodent's rump about Elgin model numbers. Add to that the fact that in Elgin factory materials catalogs issued after 1915, to determine the parts numbers you just need the grade number, which can be looked up by serial number found in an accompanying list, nobody even needs model numbers. I might as well drop my crusade to spread the word!

    I hope this will be my last post on the subject; it's no fun banging one's head against brick walls!

    Larry

  10. #10

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: Larry Treiman)

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Treiman View Post
    [the above quote is just the opening line of Don's post]


    Hi Don,

    I hope your opening statement in your first post to this thread, as quoted above isn't correct (the part about it being important) because it isn't a model 15. But how would you know that? After all, the Elgin data base says grade 478 is a model 15. Actually, information traceable to the factory indicates that the grade 478 was the 16-size, 31st model.

    I have no idea where that erroneous "model" information came from, but I have always been suspicious of its accuracy. To the best of my knowledge, the Elgin 1915 materials catalog was the last Elgin document intended for use outside the factory that used the cumbersome materials identification system involving model and class.

    In Roy Ehrhardt's Elgin "yellow book", the tables of data prepared by John D. Miller do not show model numbers for grades above 416 (c.1915). That was probably the highest number grade in the 1915 catalog.

    In Ehrhardt's later "....Beginning to End...." golden book
    he shows "model 20" for the grade 571 B.W. Raymond, but an asterisk leads to a note earlier in the book indicating that the number was assigned by researchers because no factory model number was known to exist. However, an internal Elgin document obtained by Kent Singer and posted on this MB not too long ago (if memory serves), shows that the grade 571 BWR is actually the 16-size, 47th model. The Elgin site shows that it is the 20th model, the number assigned by researchers!

    Don, I have been bringing this up for some time now on this MB, but it is finally getting through my thick skull that it is futile. I can't recall if any of my past posts on this subject even generated any discussion, which is particularly discouraging. I get the impression that most of the people frequenting this MB don't give a rodent's rump about Elgin model numbers. Add to that the fact that in Elgin factory materials catalogs issued after 1915, to determine the parts numbers you just need the grade number, which can be looked up by serial number found in an accompanying list, nobody even needs model numbers. I might as well drop my crusade to spread the word!

    I hope this will be my last post on the subject; it's no fun banging one's head against brick walls! Heck, I'm down to my last few Elgins anyway, so why should I care anyway!

    Larry
    I give a rodents rump. I am getting confused by model numbers when grade numbers is how I have purchased all the Elgin parts previously.
    I thought I may be learning something only to become more confused.

    tk

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: tkarter)

    I think that Elgin realized how confusing and generally unwieldy the system was that they used at least through the 1915 materials catalog, where materials were listed by model and "class", I believe. In the years up to and including the 1915 catalog, the grade was often identified by name only. There were a bunch of different watches assigned such grade names as Father Time, Veritas, Raymond, Lord Elgin, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

    In later catalogs all you have to know is the grade number. Up to 1915 there were many different watches, as I mentioned above, all with the same grade name. So Elgin had to provide a grade NUMBER to each variant of the named grade. Post-1915 materials catalogs have a listing to look up the grade number by serial number going back to the first run, s.n. 101-1000 are grade 69. If you want a part, all you have to do is find the catalog page with the horizontal line labeled grade 69, and then follow that line across a number of pages with vertical columns for each part until you find the place where the vertical column for the part you want meets the horizontal column for the grade you have, and that'll give you the part number. Sometimes a part might have been changed over the long production run of a particular grade. If so, symbols will appear that show the last serial number using the old part number and the first using the new number, or other pertinent information. These newer catalogs were loose-leaf, screw post bound format so they could be updated as needed.

    Further problems can occur where materials dealers today might not have all their materials arranged by factory numbers. At best, ordering materials can be tricky. To further complicate things, different watch manufacturers sometimes used different names for the same part!

    Larry

  12. #12

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: Larry Treiman)

    I am finding it more difficult to work on the older watches than I thought. There is nothing going on in the watch I don't understand.
    They are for the most part true works of art.

    I have already heard after giving name and serial number that parts aren't available.

    I guess it is time to become a real watchmaker and make what I need to fix the watch.

    tk

  13. #13
    Registered User sderek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: tkarter)

    Quote Originally Posted by tkarter View Post
    I am finding it more difficult to work on the older watches than I thought. There is nothing going on in the watch I don't understand.
    They are for the most part true works of art.

    I have already heard after giving name and serial number that parts aren't available.

    I guess it is time to become a real watchmaker and make what I need to fix the watch.

    tk
    This is puzzling to me. Did you try the suppliers I mentioned? I work on antique American pocket watches quite frequently, and have never been unable to find the parts I needed. As far as the balance staff, Jules Borel, McCaw's, Dashto, Cas-ker (to name a few) should all have the staff you need. qbstuff should have the jewel, if not, one of the other suppliers mentioned above should have the jewel you need. One problem I forsee is that most balance staffs are available in only one pivot size. If necessary, one must turn the pivot to the correct size.
    You may have to order the roller jewel by size. I know Jules Borel has a large selection.

    If you sincerely need the parts and would like help finding them, please pm me.
    Last edited by sderek; 07-24-2011 at 08:31 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: sderek)

    Quote Originally Posted by sderek View Post
    This is puzzling to me. Did you try the supplier I mentioned? I work on antique American pocket watches quite frequently, and have never been unable to find the parts I needed. As far as the balance staff, Jules Borel, McCaw's, Dashto, Cas-ker (to name a few) should all have the staff you need. qbstuff should have the jewel, if not, one of the other suppliers mentioned above should have the jewel you need. One problem I forsee is that most balance staffs are available in only one pivot size. If necessary, one must burnish the pivot to the correct size.
    You may have to order the roller jewel by size. I know Jules Borel has a large selection.

    If you sincerely need the parts and would like help finding them, please pm me.

    I have tried caskers and others. No email addresses of yet but will. This isn't my watch it is a customer's. He brought it to me because he heard I could make it go again.

    This one is going to give me fits making it go again. LOL

    tk

  15. #15
    Registered User sderek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin BW Raymond 21 jewel (RE: tkarter)

    I just hope this isn't another case of "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". LOL.

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