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  1. #1

    Default Making Gears on Sherline mill - How?

    Hello

    I would really like to get into making clock and watch wheels and pinions.

    I bought a Sherline mill for this purpose and also the CNC rotaty indexer.
    I wanted to use the fly cutting method.

    I read various bits on the web and watched the videos but somehow, I am just stuck, mentally.
    In fact, the whole milling machine has become a bit of a stumbling block for me.
    I found myself setting it up and then packing it away again, a few times.

    I know I somehow need to make a single tooth cutter but I have no idea how to actually get started.

    I have the Sherline fly cutter holder for the mill but it seems huge, for those tiny little wheels.

    Maybe someone who does this can give me a few pointers on how to get started?

    Kind regards
    Bernt

  2. #2

    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: berntd)

    I do not know if i'm allowed to say, but the nawcc has weekend workshops this summer that cover using the micro mill, and then another that covers cutting gears and pinions on the micro mill.I have signed up for both.looking forward to attending. You can find info on the nawcc website under education. Hope this helps.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: berntd)

    Quote Originally Posted by berntd View Post
    Hello

    I would really like to get into making clock and watch wheels and pinions.

    .....
    Bernt
    Maybe this thread can help:

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=53104&page=4

    Mr. Jerry (and also other members) do have a lot of excellent information shared.

    KK Au

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: berntd)

    Quote Originally Posted by berntd View Post
    Hello

    I would really like to get into making clock and watch wheels and pinions.

    I bought a Sherline mill for this purpose and also the CNC rotaty indexer.
    I wanted to use the fly cutting method.

    I read various bits on the web and watched the videos but somehow, I am just stuck, mentally.
    In fact, the whole milling machine has become a bit of a stumbling block for me.
    I found myself setting it up and then packing it away again, a few times.

    I know I somehow need to make a single tooth cutter but I have no idea how to actually get started.

    I have the Sherline fly cutter holder for the mill but it seems huge, for those tiny little wheels.

    Maybe someone who does this can give me a few pointers on how to get started?

    Kind regards
    Bernt
    Bernt
    The use of Machine tools will allow you to efficiently machine Horological parts as they were manufactured in a highly efficient manner. Unfortunately, you will rarely find information on these procedures in Horological publications. Practical machining methods for this equipment will be found in the everyday world of machining. It makes no difference if you machine a Horological part or a part for the mother in laws wheel barrow, the procedure/tooling will be the same. The only difference between machining large parts and small parts is the size of your machine and cutting tools.

    Wheel and pinion cutting is actually quite simple using this type of Equipment. But as a beginner I would suggest that you take it one step at a time starting with cutting a clock wheel only. You can start on pinions after you have mastered wheels

    To start, you would normally machine a wheel blank arbor held in a Chuck in a lathe. Once the arbor and wheel blank was cut with the blank installed, you would then transfer the chuck without removing the arbor to the rotary table in the mill. If you read the instructions for the rotary Table, you will see a clear explanation and illustration of a wheel cutting setup. While this setup will work, I am not a big fan of it for cutting wheels, but works much better cutting pinions. When cutting wheels I prefer the setup as shown in the first Attached photo when using Sherline equipment. The setup is much more rigid and gives maximum machining visibility.

    Machining single point cutters is also quite simple if you understand basic machining on a milling machine. For this I would suggest that you read the "Assembly and instruction guide" for the Mill until you understand it. And then make some chips.
    Machining cutters is far easier than explaining it. When you are comfortable with all of the items above, contact me off list with your E-mail address and I will send you a sheet I use in the School of Horology WS-119 workshop on the machining of wheel and pinion cutters. While not the whole story it will give the general idea.

    Sherlines single point cutter holder is designed for 1/4" square cutting tools. The size of the holder is unimportant since it is only 1.000" in diameter. It is large enough for Clock wheels but not to large to use 1/4" cutters that have been machined down for watch size wheels.
    An example of such a cutter and a wheel it cut can be seen in the second photo. I do not mount watch size wheel blanks on arbors as suggested in Horological publications. They are simply not rigid or strong enough for the type of work I personally like to do nor were they used by manufacturers that I could find. For watch wheels, I machine them on the end of solid stock and then part them off in the lathe. This assures a highly accurate tooth form required for proper function of a watch.

    Jerry Kieffer
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN1625.jpg   DSCN2948.jpg  
    Last edited by Jerry Kieffer; 01-26-2011 at 07:54 PM.

  5. #5
    Registered User Jeff C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jerry Kieffer)

    Jerry,

    In your set up could you put the rotary table on a right angle attachment and not rotate the headstock? I only ask because I want to buy the cnc rotary table and add the adjustable right angle table for ease of set up, I'm thinking.

    Jeff

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jeff C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff C View Post
    Jerry,

    In your set up could you put the rotary table on a right angle attachment and not rotate the headstock? I only ask because I want to buy the cnc rotary table and add the adjustable right angle table for ease of set up, I'm thinking.

    Jeff
    Jeff
    There are any number of ways to setup a Rotary Table/Milling Machine. In fact, In Sherlines R/T instructions they suggest the setup you are asking about when cutting gears. (If thats the one your asking about)

    http://www.sherline.com/3700inst.htm

    Scroll down to gear cutting.

    I prefer the setup shown in both my small and large machines for the reasons mentioned. In addition its simple and a cut wheel can be left in the same position for crossing with a small endmill. (Also shown in the above instructions) All that is required is for the headstock to be rotated back in the vertical position that will be done anyway.
    At any rate it will be a personal preference thing once one experiments with the setup that works best for them.

    Jerry Kieffer

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jerry Kieffer)

    Hi
    I can see how to cut the gear teeth but how does
    one do the spokes?
    Tinker Dwight

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Tinker Dwight)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker Dwight View Post
    Hi
    I can see how to cut the gear teeth but how does
    one do the spokes?
    Tinker Dwight
    With the blank mounted in the R/T per post #4, the headstock is rotated back to the vertical position. The wheel is then crossed out using a small center cutting endmill mounted in the spindle. Center cutting endmills can be plunged into the work piece at any location like a drill.
    See attached photo.

    First, the wheel blank is scribed using the existing wheel or a similar size wheel as a pattern. Or of course your own design. This is done before the blank is mounted on the arbor.

    The arks are machined next to the scribed marks by rotating the the rotary table. I generally do the outer arks first because of the additional strength of no metal removed and then the inner ark. The spokes are machined by rotating into position with the rotary table and then machining in and out with the "Y" axis. After the first one, this procedure only takes a fraction of the time of hand crossing and is far more accurate especially the arks. When using this setup for tooth cutting no repositioning is required for crossing.

    Jerry Kieffer
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN2647.jpg  
    Last edited by Jerry Kieffer; 01-27-2011 at 10:27 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jerry Kieffer)

    Hi Jerry, group.

    I have made myself a single tooth cutter holder for the mill and I have also calculated / modelled the gear and pinion I need to make. I have come up with a module of 0.38 (cycliod).

    Next step is to actually make the cutters as per your method.
    The radii I need for this gear are 0.75mm for the gear and 0.4mm for the pinion.

    To make the cutters, I will thus need endmills or sidemills (?) with these radii.

    My searches so far have come up blank.

    Is there a mailorder supplier for such small endmills or is there a way to make them perhaps?

    Kind regards
    Bernt

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: berntd)

    Quote Originally Posted by berntd View Post
    Hi Jerry, group.

    I have made myself a single tooth cutter holder for the mill and I have also calculated / modelled the gear and pinion I need to make. I have come up with a module of 0.38 (cycliod).

    Next step is to actually make the cutters as per your method.
    The radii I need for this gear are 0.75mm for the gear and 0.4mm for the pinion.

    To make the cutters, I will thus need endmills or sidemills (?) with these radii.

    My searches so far have come up blank.

    Is there a mailorder supplier for such small endmills or is there a way to make them perhaps?

    Kind regards
    Bernt
    Bernt
    Actually .38 module is a rather large watch tooth profile or small clock. I have not seen commercial cutters of this size unless they were special made and very very expensive. However very simple to machine with standard size Endmills. If I were machining .38 module wheels, I would use a standard 3/64" endmill and 1/16" for 8-10 leaf pinions. Are you sure your measurements are correct?

    At any rate, Endmills are readily available down to .001" per the following sample link.
    http://www.pmtnow.com/end_mills/tools/TS-2.asp

    And Another.

    http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF...0039&PMCTLG=00

    And another type in the middle of the page

    http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF...8153&PMCTLG=00

    Part of being successful at machining will be to accumulate a large supply of surplus new and or used tooling at good prices when available. In your case, if your unable to find tooling, you may need to contract with someone who leaves the country and attends shows where this type of material is available. (You may want to ask the individual I suggested awhile back for suggestions) Once you accumulate a supply of material and tools, you will have what you need when you need it.

    Jerry Kieffer

  11. #11

    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jerry Kieffer)

    Hi Jerry,

    Thank you for the info. I will check out all the links!

    The gears are for the gravity / saw clock movement (see my thread under clock repair).

    The calculations are correct and I think your endmill suggestions are pretty good for this and they will work.

    3/64" diameter cutter radius is ~0.6mm
    1/32" diameter cutter radius has ~0.4mm

    Pretty close to my calculated values of 0.75 and 0.4mm

    Here are some pics of the single tooth cutter holder I made for the Sherline.
    It splits open and will hold 1/8" round silver steel or drill rod cutters since that is all I have available here at the moment.

    I can't wait to make these gears...


    Kind regards
    Bernt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails bernt single tooth cutter1.jpg   bernt single tooth cutter2.jpg  

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: berntd)

    Quote Originally Posted by berntd View Post
    Hi Jerry,

    Thank you for the info. I will check out all the links!

    The gears are for the gravity / saw clock movement (see my thread under clock repair).

    The calculations are correct and I think your endmill suggestions are pretty good for this and they will work.

    3/64" diameter cutter radius is ~0.6mm
    1/32" diameter cutter radius has ~0.4mm

    Pretty close to my calculated values of 0.75 and 0.4mm

    Here are some pics of the single tooth cutter holder I made for the Sherline.
    It splits open and will hold 1/8" round silver steel or drill rod cutters since that is all I have available here at the moment.

    I can't wait to make these gears...


    Kind regards
    Bernt
    Bernt
    Your holder looks great. However for your next one, I would suggest a straight shank or arbor if it is for light loads such as this application. This will allow you to adjust the location of the cutter for clearance when working with other accessories. And of course makes construction much simpler and faster.

    If your Module is .38 as you mentioned, I suggested 3/64" endmill for the wheel and 1/16" for the pinion as a starting point. (Not having seen what you are doing) The radius for a pinion will be much larger than for a wheel since more material must be removed for proper flow of the wheel and pinion. On a cycloidal wheel, the tooth radius is measured at the top of the tooth making it a smaller diameter. However on a pinion, it is measured from the bottom of the tooth to the top making it much larger radius. The larger radius will give the cutter angles required for proper pinion tooth clearance and sizing. You may want to practice on soft material until you get the process down if you run into problems.

    Also I see I did not answer your questions on Endmill construction.
    For limited use special projects, single flute half round endmills can be easily and quickly made.
    An example of such an Endmill can be seen in the following link middle of the page
    http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF...9080&PMCTLG=00

    They can be easily ground using a rotary table on a mill if you do not have tool grinding tools. Simply rotate a drill blank against a fine stone rotating in the spindle if diameter adjustment is required. Then grind to half round with out removal from the rotary table. It is then ready for use. Make sure you cover the ways when grinding.

    Drill blanks can be seen in the following sample link.

    http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF...0036&PMCTLG=00

    Jerry Kieffer

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jerry Kieffer)

    This might help you gather information on the skills you wish to develope.

    http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/hom...oredirect=true
    I'm just here for the watches
    Steve

  14. #14

    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: Jerry Kieffer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Kieffer View Post
    Bernt
    Your holder looks great. However for your next one, I would suggest a straight shank or arbor if it is for light loads such as this application. This will allow you to adjust the location of the cutter for clearance when working with other accessories. And of course makes construction much simpler and faster....

    Jerry Kieffer
    Hi Jerry,
    did you do you mean the the holder should fit into a collet rather than the spindle direct?

    Also, should I first try making the pinion and then the wheel to fit or the other way round?
    Is drill rod is also suitable to make the pinion and arbor out of?

    Last one for now:
    Can I use carbide endmills to make radius on the cutter?
    I ask because Sherline does not recommend using carbide endmills on the mill.


    Bernt
    Last edited by berntd; 02-17-2011 at 09:25 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Making Gears on Sherline mill - How? (RE: berntd)

    Quote Originally Posted by berntd View Post
    Hi Jerry,
    did you do you mean the the holder should fit into a collet rather than the spindle direct?

    Also, should I first try making the pinion and then the wheel to fit or the other way round?
    Is drill rod is also suitable to make the pinion and arbor out of?

    Last one for now:
    Can I use carbide endmills to make radius on the cutter?
    I ask because Sherline does not recommend using carbide endmills on the mill.


    Bernt
    Bernt
    For heavier loads, the Morris Taper mounting is the most accurate and the only way to go. For lighter loads, mounting a straight arbor in a MT collet is more versatile if required. I only mentioned this in case you have any clearance issues. Either will work equally well in this case if they have proper clearance.

    I would suggest you cut the wheel first and then fit to the pinion. The wheel should roll freely around the pinion before it is removed from the rotary table. This will allow you to make any correction cuts if required eliminating additional setups.

    Pinion material is very tricky. Drill rod is ideal but difficult to cut unless specifically selected for free machining characteristics per manufacturer specifications. This is especially important when using the highest quality commercial cutters to prevent cutter damage. W-1 (Water hard) is generally easier to machine.
    Hardening and tempering of drill rod in the Home Shop is not as durable as HSS alloys of expensive tooling. In Horology, many pinions are not hardened without ill effects. If you are unable to machine the drill rod that you have with lighter cuts and cutting fluid at under 300 RPM, try free machining mild steel specifically Designed for machining. Once the process has been mastered, Pinions can always be replaced when you have a chance to purchase desired materials. When cutting steel, cutters should be hardened and properly tempered/sharpened.

    The Mill could care less if you use HSS or Carbide Endmills. The only thing is that Carbide Endmills require a little more skill to prevent chipping.
    However the machining result from either will be the same.
    I have not seen that statement, but if so, I suspect it comes from a beginner skill level stand point. Tool material itself has no effect on any machine all things being equal.

    Jerry Kieffer

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