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  1. #1

    Default How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock?

    This is a brand new lathe from Horia I bought a few years ago. When I got it I found the problem of mis-alignment of center-stock and tail-stock. (I am so surprise with the quality of Swiss products!!!)
    I can't use this lathe for center drilling!
    I have already send back the whole lathe together with the drill chuck/drilling accessories, also may collects that cannot fit to the headstock, and also several items which are not finished!!!) to the factory for three times (replace, repair....whatever they told me!!!!)but it's a shame the same lathe is returned and the result is the same, still have many problems (will post them later for help!). The condition was better when it arrived after repair but after a few months, the mis-alignment increase (I remove the belt when not in use!)
    I found if I press the tailstock a bit, it can be aligned better, but after a short period, it return to it's mis-alignment position. I think the metal is a bit "elastic", made of soft iron!!! I guess what the factory method of repair is just "bend/hit/" the tailstock a bit......

    I've been thinking about the solution for a few years but still have no luck. Don't want to give up, so.....

    Anyone has repair experience for this issue?
    Or to repair is impossible?


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    Your help will be appreciated.

    KKAu

  2. #2
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: movement2009)

    It sounds like you have a new lathe so make sure you have exhausted all chances of the dealer or factory fixing it before you attempt any repairs.

    Bending things is not a good plan.
    Always assume that your repair may not work out as you hope and can you get back to where you are now.

    If the mis alignment is vertical ( distance above the bed ) I am not sure how to help. I suspect you would need a reasonable shop to effect repairs.

    If the misalignment is horizontal then the problem may be related to the fitting of the slipper that positions the parts on the round bed. If there is a seperate part in there like the Lorch has you may be able to remove it and stone a bit off one side or shim one side to make the tailstock ( or headstock ) move to a new position.

    If there is no seperate part you may be able to scrape a bit off the high side ( you don't need much by the look of it ) Otherwise you will have to bore out the hole and fit one which again would require some reasonable equipment.

    I don't know what accessories you have but I would check them all and find out how many line up.
    Try and adjust the least number possible.
    I'm just here for the watches
    Steve

  3. #3
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: StephanG)

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanG View Post
    ...
    If the misalignment is vertical ( distance above the bed ) I am not sure how to help. I suspect you would need a reasonable shop to effect repairs.

    If the misalignment is horizontal then the problem may be related to the fitting of the slipper that positions the parts on the round bed....
    You have an obvious misallignment (2nd photo), which appears to be both vertical and horizontal, but since you have a tubular bed (more accurately a shaft) all it takes is a relative rotation of the stocks on the bed to produce such a compound misallignment. Unless something else is out of whack, the solution wound be to make sure the HS and TS are not rotated with respect to each other. I don't know why the factory would not be able to fix this.

    Flat bed lathes can have HS/TS mismatches, usually vertical, especially when mixing and matching head/tailstocks) but these are easily corrected by shimming the low-lying stock. That (and the greater dimensional stability of flat lathe ways) is why many prefer this design over tubular bed lathes (including the popular Unimats).

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: Neuron)

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuron View Post
    You have an obvious misallignment (2nd photo), which appears to be both vertical and horizontal, but since you have a tubular bed (more accurately a shaft) all it takes is a relative rotation of the stocks on the bed to produce such a compound misallignment. Unless something else is out of whack, the solution wound be to make sure the HS and TS are not rotated with respect to each other. I don't know why the factory would not be able to fix this.

    Flat bed lathes can have HS/TS mismatches, usually vertical, especially when mixing and matching head/tailstocks) but these are easily corrected by shimming the low-lying stock. That (and the greater dimensional stability of flat lathe ways) is why many prefer this design over tubular bed lathes (including the popular Unimats).
    Thanks for your response, your eyes are sharp! both vertical and horizontal got misallignment! I also can't believe the factory can't fix the problem. It's just wasting my time and money to return the items, wait for several months and finally got the same result!!! The only two reason I can guess is that they treat Asia custom as fool! They also send me the cheap chuck instead of Albrecht chuck that I paid for! (They replace it without saying a word after my request!)The Albrecht chuck also got misaligned arbor which I think is fixed to the chuck by them, not by Albrecht!!!
    They send back the same HS, TS and bed while they told me they will replace it. The other reason maybe they already don't have the ability to make good quality items, they have already do their best!!! I can't request them any more!!! Anyway, I still love this lathe and want to fix the problem so that it can work properly.

    ZZ Au
    Last edited by movement2009; 01-13-2011 at 01:16 AM. Reason: Add: I bought the whole new set of lathe directly from Horia!!!

  5. #5

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: StephanG)

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanG View Post
    I don't know what accessories you have but I would check them all and find out how many line up.
    Try and adjust the least number possible.
    Thanks for your help, I have check all the accessories but no luck .....I am sure the mis-align problem is from tail stock, and also the drill pump attachment (no hope with this accessories, it is not straight when drill bit or drill chuck is attached to it!!!just rotate it to find the best alignment! very worse quality!).
    I also got Lorch, the bed have flat-side on the side while Horia have flat-side on the bottom. So......

  6. #6
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: movement2009)

    If the mis alignment changes as you rotate the tail stock spindle

    "and also the drill pump attachment (no hope with this accessories, it is not straight when drill bit or drill chuck is attached to it!!!just rotate it to find the best alignment! very worse quality!)."

    it could be that the tailstock is OK but there is a problem with the spindle.
    If you have access to another lathe you should be able to test the spindle with some kind of indicator.
    A new spindle could easly be made with a bit of drill rod of the correct size.

    Did you return the lathe to the factory that made it or to a dealer.
    Some of these machines are machined as a pair. ( headstock to tailstock )
    If someone has been swapping parts this may lead to problems in its own right as you may no longer have a matched pair.
    But still check the spindle and make sure that is perfect first.
    I'm just here for the watches
    Steve

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: StephanG)

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanG View Post
    If the mis alignment changes as you rotate the tail stock spindle

    "and also the drill pump attachment (no hope with this accessories, it is not straight when drill bit or drill chuck is attached to it!!!just rotate it to find the best alignment! very worse quality!)."

    it could be that the tailstock is OK but there is a problem with the spindle.
    If you have access to another lathe you should be able to test the spindle with some kind of indicator.
    A new spindle could easly be made with a bit of drill rod of the correct size.

    Did you return the lathe to the factory that made it or to a dealer.
    Some of these machines are machined as a pair. ( headstock to tailstock )
    If someone has been swapping parts this may lead to problems in its own right as you may no longer have a matched pair.
    But still check the spindle and make sure that is perfect first.
    Thanks StephanG for your help again. I have already check every accessories with another lathe with double indicator (this can also ensure the indicators don't have any problem), the spindle don't have any problem.
    What I mean bending is the pump lever attachment for drilling, nearly all accessories attached to it (by M5 thread) got serious bending!!!

    I bought the lathe from Horia (one set of lathe and one set of turns) directly, I don't know if they have their own factory in Swiss now or they have their production move to "China" or "Taiwan", their 3 jaw chucks are from Morpx, and their collets are all from Schuablin. I have return the problem items to them for three times, from Hong Kong to Swiss. You are quite right about the matching HS, TS and the bed as they request me to send back the whole set to them, they also promise to replace a new one for two times, but....I have make a very tiny marks by small graver in the area that no one can notice them easily (sorry I am so bad that I want to see if they really replace the lathe because it don't have serial number on the HS, TS and bed!) So bad to see all the marks that I made every time I get back the lathe from Horia!!! I find no further machine mark on the returned lathe, so I suspect they just bend the tailstock a bit so as to make it align better, but because of the "metal memory", it return to it's problem stage after a few months!!!!
    I don't mind they don't replace a new lathe but just don't understand why they can't fix it! I just wonder how other lathe manufacturer fix such problem. Or if the problem is existing because the wrong setting of the machine or the fixture during the production run, such mis-align problem can't be fixed and the problem parts has to be trashed!!!
    Anyone know if such kind of European style watchmaking lathe, the bed is hardened or not? Mind seems not hardened?


    KK Au

  8. #8
    Registered user. Kevin W.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: movement2009)

    With all the head aches you have had.I would be tempted to send it back to the company that made it and get my money back too for the shipping costs.
    One clock at a time. Kevin West
    http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB/

  9. #9
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: Kevin W.)

    I have had cause to straighten bent cast iron castings in the past ( I assume the tailstock is a casting) and it is not easy. It may be that the metal will need to be annealed before you try. The paint will not be happy. It is also sometimes the case that you have to bend it past where you want to go and then bring it back. It is not an easy task and the chances of breaking something are considerable. Castings can also contain stress if they were not properly cooled and this can be released when the item is machined. The parts start off OK but move over time. A common problem on cheap Chinese equipment because they do not anneal castings or let them age. If this is the problem and you alter something on the tailstock and fix the alignment problem today the castings may continue to move and the problem would come back again.
    The only other option I can think of is to find a used tailstock from something else and try to make that fit. Lorch ones turn up on ebay often but check dimensions to see if one will fit. There is also a mob selling new Chinese made machines with a D bed. You might be able to get a tailstock from them. At least that way if your plans do not work out the origional lathe parts will not have been messed with and you will be no worse off.
    I'm just here for the watches
    Steve

  10. #10
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: StephanG)

    The problem with "round" bed lathes and their cast HS/TS (with machined round "holes") is the potential rotational misallignment, which is what you seem to have, along with the fact that such cylindrical lathe beds are less dimensionally stable than lathes with "flat" ways mating surfaces, even if everthing else is within specs.

    I suppose that if you had a well-equipped machine shop and the requisite machinist skills you could fix your lathem but why the heck should you do so? You bought a new machine that was defective, and if the manufacturer can't fix it you should ask for your money back and buy a good machine.

  11. #11

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: Neuron)

    I would have asked for my money back and only shipped it back one time.

  12. #12
    Registered User Jere Mihalov's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: s. smith)

    This thread is interesting. I have never owned their lathes, but I have always heard much praise about them and wished to acquire one. I own a Horia staking set and it is very nicely made. I would expect they would stand behind their product and wish to correct this.

    When setup in the turns configuration, do the two poppets align? If the same misalignment occurs I would think the error is in the bed.

    I was also curious about the configuration in your photo. The tailstock appears backward compared to the photo on their website. Is it possible to reverse?



    Jere

  13. #13

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: Jere Mihalov)

    Jere, the picture you have attached is for a different lathe.
    movement2009's lathe has TH6 tailstock, the one in your picture has TH7 tailstock.
    Having said so, you might actually be onto something!
    If you look at majority of the lathes, tailstock handle tends to be behind it rather than at the front (ie away from the operator).
    With the tailstock being symmetrical it would be all too easy to put it together wrong way round? and hey presto your tailstock to headstock alignment is out ...

    How about it movement2009 ?? - it's easy to check?

    Chris
    Last edited by bambuko; 01-14-2011 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: bambuko)

    Too late to edit my previous posting so here an addendum.
    I guess, your lathe should look like this when viewed from behind (compare with your original photo):


    Chris

  15. #15

    Default Re: How to adjust the center alignment of headstock and tailstock? (RE: bambuko)

    And continuing with my interest (perhaps mods can join my postings into one? - in case it matters).
    You should have a look at this:
    http://www.lathes.co.uk/steiner/
    Horia lathe seems to be a clone of this one? and if you look at pictures, you will see both tailstock and headstock locking handles on the same side - yours are on opposite sides...

    Chris

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