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  1. #1
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Elgin balance staff

    Hi all,

    18s Elgin B W Raymond serial number 12863154, which staff should I look for? It is said that from serial number 12863001 it is a double roller, can anyone confirm that and a part number, pivot size?

    Michael

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    You will need either #2516 or #857, depending on whether it's a two piece roller or a combination roller.

    My experience is that RR grades tend to use two piece rollers, so 2516 would be my best guess. I'd wait until I had it in hand to order, though. The roller type will be very obvious once it's removed.

  3. #3
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: ben_hutcherson)

    Thanks Ben, I will wait and see which type it is when I get the watch.

    Michael

  4. #4
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    I have the watch here now, I looked att the roller table and as I am not sure where it is safe to place the roller table pulling tool, can someone tell or show me the differences so I don´t mess up anything? Thanks in advance!

    Michael
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC00352.jpg   DSC00353.jpg   DSC00354.jpg  

  5. #5
    Registered User doug sinclair's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    The attached picture is from Henry Fried's Watch Repairer's Manual. This is the double roller arrangement which I suspect yours is. If you look at the profile of your roller table with a high-powered loupe, you'll likely be able to see that the safety roller is a separate piece sitting on a shoulder at the bottom of the staff. When removing the roller jewel portion, support the roller under the roller jewel. This portion of the roller table has been known to split into two, diametrically across the roller table at the roller jewel, if it is on there, tight!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails D R pic 001.jpg  

  6. #6
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: doug sinclair)

    Oh my, seems to be a possible disaster ahead! I will be careful, thanks Doug!

    Michael

  7. #7

    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    If you have the roller puller that comes in a round wooden block with the parts in it like a staking set (mine is a Levin) it isn't hard at all. The proper sized tool is the key. If I've done several, you can do it. Now if I could just stop screwing up hairsprings............

  8. #8
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: Dave Haynes)

    It is a two-piece roller. What i don´t quite get is that there still is a part on the staff, the two other pieces were fitted on this part, is it a third part/tube or is it just a fat staff?

    I have looked closer now and it is indeed a fat staff!

    One question remains, which one of the four possibilities should I order:

    1) 2516 DR P-12,

    2) 2516 piv-13 7th model,

    3) 2516 piv-10 7th model C or

    4) 2516C piv-13 7th model C ?

    Number one would be my own choice but I could be wrong assuming that the others are not DR?

    Michael
    Last edited by MFRC1956; 10-06-2010 at 04:38 AM.

  9. #9
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    I think I will have to use dynamite to remove the safety roller.

    I noticed that the roller table will be quite easy to remove later but the darned safety roller is in the way and it is sitting tight as .....

    Michael

  10. #10

    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    My "learning" watch is an 18s Elgin. From the information in this thread I've determined that I need an Elgin 857 new style long hub pivot. Question is which pivot size. One of my pivots is broken and the other is mushroomed to the point that I can't trust my measurements. No lathe to trim it. I keep getting measurement of .13 to .15. I'm not that good at using caliper anyway.
    Thought about measuring jewel holes but don't have appropriate tool.
    Any trick that will allow me to measure jewel holes.
    BTW, don't think this is original balance. No serial number on it.

  11. #11
    Registered User doug sinclair's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: whizzer)

    The safety roller is the smaller diameter part of the two-piece roller table, and the one that fits nearest to the bottom end of the staff. Are you saying that this one is difficult to remove? Have you loosened the roller jewel portion? Usually, the safety roller portion would be removed first, because if you loosen the roller jewel portion, it gets in the way when trying to remove the safety roller. What are you using for a roller remover? There are many different designs of roller removers. Some hand-held, lever action ones, some have a base with an anvil and punches, and some work on a staking tool. The procedure for removing any tight roller component would vary, depending on which type of tool you use.

    To Whizzer,

    Part numbers on watch parts? Don't expect it to happen! Where and how would you stamp a part number on anything so small, pray tell?

  12. #12
    Registered user. MFRC1956's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: doug sinclair)

    Doug, with all respect I know that the safety roller is the smaller diameter part of the two-piece roller table and the one that fits nearest to the bottom end of the staff.

    Yes, that is the one which is difficult to remove! The roller jewel portion was rather loose.

    My roller remover is an old one, a small round wooden block with four different types of removers and a couple of punches, there is a kind of anvil in the middle where you would place the remover tool. I suppose the remover tools could be used in the staking set as well, never tried though.

    /Michael

  13. #13

    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: MFRC1956)

    On my other watches all or part of the serial number is scratched on the under side if a balance arm.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: whizzer)

    Whizzer,

    On some Elgins, the serial number is on the TOP of the balance arms. Try looking there and see if you find it.

  15. #15
    Registered User doug sinclair's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elgin balance staff (RE: ben_hutcherson)

    I was resding between the lines when I mentioned the roller portion staying in place until after the safety roller is off. You said the roller portion came loose easily. What else might I have visualized but the chance it was causing interference when removing the safety portion?

    Anyway. I suspect the type of roller remover you are using will require a small riveting hammer. An old shop teacher of mine used to tell us that, "in the hands of a skilled technician, a hammer is a precision instrument!" Never moreso than here. Place the suitable punch over the end of the staff with the safety roller in place, and commence as many gentle "taps" as required to make the roller begin to move. You may have to increase the vigor of your blows until you see things beginning to move. Once that happens, reduce the velocity of your blows until the roller is off.

    Whizzer,

    You mentioned a part number on the staff! Aside from the serial number of the individual movement being also marked on the ancillary bridges of many watches, there will be no part numbers on anything else. The number scribed on the arms of the balance wheel is not a part number. Unless there's been a switch somewhere along the line, the number under the balance arms will be the serial number of the watch.

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