American Watch Co. M#1860 16S 15J

[BUDDYSANGELS]

Gentlemen

I recently purchased this watch for a little more then the scrap value of the 18K case. The complete watch weight is 116.5 grams, it put the squeeze on the budget but I could not let it be split-up and lost forever. The case is Hallmarked A.W.Co 18K #20773, the inner dust cover is engraved "R.H. Miller" "Dec 19th 1867", the movement #280291 (1885/1886), the marked "American Watch Co". Putting all of the facts together I believe this watch is 100% original and deserved better then being scraped. Knowing only the basics on the mergers and transitions going on during the 1850/1860 with the manufacturer of this watch, I need a little clairification on the fact that the movement states "Appleton Tracy Co." vs "American Watch Co." on the dial. Some information on good links to research are welcome.

Thanks Fred

[Tom McIntyre]

The company was called the American Watch Co.. The KW16/1860 model was available in American Watch Co., Am'n Watch Co. and Appleton, Tracy & Co. grade. The Am'n and Appleton Tracy were both 15J and would appear to be identical except for engraving. The American Watch Co. grade is 19J and sold for more than twice the price of the others, I believe.

Perhaps someone with the price list can comment.

[Ken Toy]

hi, I looked up your watch, and IF it is the one I see in the book, it is a model 1859, 3/4 KW and if it is the original 18kt case, well ...if you bought it for "just over scrap"... I must tell you you made a GREAT buy!!
does it run?? and can you post a picture of the inside case back and Then I can confirm, if it is worth the 5000.00 I am seeing in my book.
YES .....5,000.00, ONLY IF it has the markings, and patent I need to see.
post the pic`s....and we shall see..............?

[Fred Hansen]

Congrats on the nice save Fred and your watch is as Tom says ... a 16 size 1860 model "Appleton Tracy & Co." grade produced by the American Watch Company in about 1866/1867.

The "Appleton Tracy & Co." was actually the company's name between about 1857 and 1859 before the company name was changed to "American Watch Co.", and the Appleton Tracy name was also used during this time as an 18 size movement grade name. After the company name change though the Appleton Tracy & Co. was continued as a grade name in the 18 size line, and over the following years the Appleton Tracy & Co. marking was used as a grade name in other sizes and models (including the 1860 model such as yours).

I'm not sure where you found an 1885/1886 date, but for the best dating check out the online link to the factory serial records ... http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/LookupSN.asp ... and you will see that your watch falls in a run shown as finished between December 1866 and September 1867.

As to Ken's post ...

hi, I looked up your watch, and IF it is the one I see in the book, it is a model 1859, 3/4 KW and if it is the original 18kt case, well ...if you bought it for "just over scrap"... I must tell you you made a GREAT buy!!
does it run?? and can you post a picture of the inside case back and Then I can confirm, if it is worth the 5000.00 I am seeing in my book.
YES .....5,000.00, ONLY IF it has the markings, and patent I need to see.
post the pic`s....and we shall see..............?

... this is absolutely not related to your watch, the model 1859 is an entirely different design as well as a different size. I believe Ken may have been looking in the Gilbert/Shugart priceguide at the "American Watch Co." grade movement with the reversible center pinion patent, but this is a very different watch than what you have.

Fred

[artbissell]

A model 1861 0f about 1875 in 18k marked dial American and mvmt. Appleton.

[Tom McIntyre]

Art,

Your watch is a model 1865 ladies watch, not an 1861. The 1861 is a bit more scarce and features Fitt's patent. I will attach a picture of the model 1861 (kw10) in Appleton Tracy grade as well as a model 1859 (KW18) in American grade.

The patent on both watch is Fitt's patent. On the KW18 it is applied to the center wheel while on the KW10 it is applied to the main wheel in the form of a ratchet affixed to the barrel.

[BUDDYSANGELS]

Gentlemen

I sincerly thank everyone for the confirmation of the model, and the accurate production date based on the run. I'll get some additional pictures posted to assist in evaluating if the movement and case are original to each other. I enjoy learning, it is the flip-side of my trade which is teaching. The links provided will be visited often to improve my kownledge of pocket watches. The sidebar debate on the model of the movement was very informative. Only when I took a good look at the pictures did the differences start to stand out.

Thanks Fred

[Bryan Eyring]

Fred;

Did you happen to weigh the case with the springs and xtal removed? I would be interested in knowing what the actual weight of the case is if you know. These drum cases are sometimes thin with big springs, was that the case with this one?

Regards,
Bryan

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Fred,

I wouldn't attempt to remove the springs from the case just to get a more accurate weight. Many times the pins or screws that hold them in place are difficult to safely remove.

Greg

[Bryan Eyring]

Fred,

I wouldn't attempt to remove the springs from the case just to get a more accurate weight. Many times the pins or screws that hold them in place are difficult to safely remove.

Greg

I do it all the time with very few issues. It is the most accurate and quickest way to concretely determine the intrinsic value of one's case!

Regards,
Bryan

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Bryan,
It is not uncommon for the pins or screws to be rusted in place and difficult to remove.

Greg

[darrahg]

Bryan, I sometimes think it would be easier to melt the case down in order to get those spring pins out. Ha.

[Tom McIntyre]

When they are rusted in place as they almost always are in 150 year old watches, they cannot be removed by a screwdriver. One almost always damages the case trying. It is a simple matter to make allowance for a pair of similar springs. At worst the estimated weight will be off by 1 dwt. Only a gold scrapper would care about that difference.

In a drum case it is easy to view the springs with the movement removed, so you can see how much weight has been added. In a case with deep recesses in the band, it can be a little harder to guess how much lead is hidden inside there.

.75 x $60 is $45 for 1dwt of 18K. Not much on a $2,000 case.

[Bryan Eyring]

I was simply trying to point out that removing these screws is not always the brain surgery that everyone here is trying to portray it to be.

@ Tom - Quite on the contrary. I typically find that the earlier the case, the better the quality of the screw head and thread-form and, subsequently, the easier the removal. Case in point I easily removed the screws from an 18K MB housing a c1870 57' model just the other day. And thank you for making my point about the lead weights - another important reason for removal!

@ Darrah - Agreed but I never insinuated that all cases can easily have their springs removed, nor do I propose that someone attempt to do so if they ARE rusted or damaged.

With the rising gold value it is becoming more and more important for us as serious collectors to get a tight handle on the intrinsic value of our gold cases, and more importantly on those that we are considering buying. Had manufacturers stuck to 1/4 increments for case net weights (ie 5, 10, 15, 20 dwt, etc), and not used lead weights, then I might agree that spring removal is not necessary - but the point is that they didn't.
As long as people continue to "guesstimate" and swag the gold value of cases the more savvy (the scrappers) will continue to dominate and pick off nice gold cases that would have otherwise made it into someone's collection.

~B

[harold bain]

I have re-opened this thread to discussion after removing a few barbed comments. Lets all try to get along