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  1. #31

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: lesbradley)

    Greetings all. And thank you, Ingulphus, for "it was the wurst of times." You'll get the Dickens for that!

    As to the Jahresuhr-Schwenningen firm, Schmid's Lexikon has (under W. Wrth) them in business in Schwenningen as of 1903, and last mentioned in a Villingen addressbook (there and under a different name) in 1910.

    I'll first attach (below) a short description of the firm that also appeared in the 1907 Adrebuch. The "1903" in the entry is when the firm was founded, the "52" is their telephone number, and then comes their telegraph (is that our word?) address. The owners are Wilhelm Wrth and Carl Mack.

    The Standgehusen by the way refers (at this time) to what we would call table-clock cases (rather then in a different context where it would mean tall/longcase-clock cases). But apparently they also made torsion pendel clocks in metal and wood cases which could hang, that is, wall clocks.

    And then a list of their reps.

    Will also attach -- and please note that these two come from the earlier text -- an ad from the 1904 Adrebuch, and the "register" entry from the same source.

    Best regards,
    Zep
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    Last edited by zepernick; 03-20-2009 at 08:25 AM.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: John Hubby)

    [Boy, what I would give if the ad also showed the back plate!![/quote]

    Hi John,

    I do not know if the clock shown below has the same movement as the one featured in the advertisment as both of them appeared to be identical in all aspects looking from the front. The back plate matches with Plate 1603 . The number 11536 found on the base of pendulum matches with that found on the back plate. The suspension bracket is gimbal type ( No 14 ) and the anchor has adjustable pallets. The bridge for holding the front anchor pivot is movable.

    Mun C.W.
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    Last edited by MUN CHOR-WENG; 03-20-2009 at 09:25 AM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: MUN CHOR-WENG)

    Zep, thanks for the additional material. The 1904 advert with patent numbers virtually clinches that W. Wrth & Co. were the makers of the group of clocks I've compiled, as both these patents (DRP 144687 and DRGM 215537) were found with clocks that can be conclusively dated to late 1903/early 1904 and have features that appear consistently throughout the production of these movement designs.

    DRP 144687 granted 29 Sept. 1903 was the patent for the Wille temperature compensating pendulum, No. 7 in the Repair Guide and is stamped on all the plates with which this pendulum (matching serial numbers) has been found. This clearly coincides with the founding of the Wrth company. Further, this DRP is found ONLY on plates of movements that have other key features appearing throughout the production.

    DRGM 215537 was granted 16 December 1903 for the guide slots cut into the top of a pendulum disc, in which pins underneath the adjusting weights can slide. This prevents turning of the weights on the disc, and is found on pendulum No. 20 in the Repair Guide. This pendulum in turn is found (matching serial numbers) on most of the clocks I believe were made by Wrth after serial number 2900 made about the end of 2003 or early 2004. From a thorough search of clocks in my collection and business inventory there is no question pendulum No. 20 was the first with that feature. It was used later by others, notably for Huber-designed and patented pendulums made after 1910 that were used by GB, Kienzle, Badische, and of course Huber.

    Based on the evident connection with Wrth seen from the above two patents, I searched the listing from the DUZ that Doug Stevenson put together and found all the DRGM's granted to Wrth and subsequently listed in the Bulletin article on torsion patents published in the February 2006 issue. These provide even more evidence that this particular group of clocks must have been made by Wrth.

    This following DRGM is for the disc pendulum with graduated sub-discs operated by gears to adjust time, and I have two examples documented with matching serial numbers to the movements.
    DRGM 257636 W. Wrth & Co. 13-7-1905
    Adjustment mechanism for a torsion pendulum, with which the adjustment weights are adjustable inside the pendulum disc and moved by wheels.
    I believe the next one could be the heavy 3-ball pendulum No. 26 in the Repair Guide, attributed there to Haas but found mostly with Ph. Hauck clocks. None of these have yet been documented with one of the "Wrth" movements but that could yet happen.
    DRGM 270879 W. Wrth & Co. 26-1-1906
    Precision adjustment mechanism for turning pendulums, with which the rotating motion of three swinging weights are arranged, with the moved weights being transfered to pointers.
    The following is an improvement on DRGM 257636.
    DRGM 282267 W. Wrth & Co. 31-5-1906
    Adjustment device for torsion pendulums, such that the movement of the adjustment mechanism by a wheel are fitted with two springs rim-curved to avoid gear-tooth play on the pendulum weights digit wafers.
    The following DRGM is unquestionably the gimbal upper bracket No. 14!!! The date of the DRGM coincides with its appearance on both the "Wrth" clocks and later on Kienzle clocks, where it was used at least until WWI.
    DRGM 302860 W. Wrth & Co. 23-2-1907
    Turning pendulum suspension, with which the feather mounting elements are mobile around two axes of rotation cutting under 90 each other.
    Once again, the following DRGM is unquestionably the gimbal suspension No. 14, describing an improvement in DRGM 302860.
    DRGM 314710 W. Wrth & Co. 18-7-1907
    Turning pendulum suspension, with which into closed ring divide the feather/spring attachment block around two under right cutting axes of rotation are mobile.
    So, while we don't quite have a "smoking gun" here (such as a Wrth ad showing the backplate design of one of their clocks) there certainly is a preponderance of evidence that Wrth was the maker of a group of clocks numbering around 20,000, that all have common features not found on early JUF, Huber, or Hauck clocks made in the same time frame that Wrth was noted to be in business. One of these features (front plate bridge for the anchor arbor) shows up on Kienzle clocks made in 1908 or later, indicating some kind of cooperation may have occurred with Wrth at that time. Also, Kienzle used pendulum No. 20 for a number of years starting about 1908 and onward.

    The features found on "Wrth" clocks include:

    1) Click layout with no click spring pin hole, per Plate 1049 and others.
    2) No use of suspension guards, with possible exception of clocks assembled by Bowler & Burdick that may have been added by B&B (Plate 1008A).
    3) Fixed pallets from the first production through about serial number 3000, then adjustable pallets for all subsequent production (No change in backplate design with this change).
    4) Removable anchor arbor bridge in the front plate, after serial number 3000 (coincides with change to adjustable pallets)
    5) First and exclusive use of pendulum No. 20 at least to 1907 based on matching serial numbers.
    6) First and exclusive use of the rotating disc adjustable pendulum.
    7) Exclusive use of a movement support plate with double ogee form at the front.
    8) First use of upper suspension bracket No. 14.
    9) The only 400-Day clocks with banking pins for the anchor.
    10) First and only known use of offset anchor until J. Kaiser in 1950's.

    The back plates that I now conclude were most likely made by Wrth include:
    1007A, 1008A, 1009, 1009A, 1009AA, 1049, 1049A, 1053, 1437, 1438, 1440, 1603, 1613.

    Note that all the rectangular plate movements have the exact same click layout. There are two basic round plate designs (1009A, 1009AA, 1437, 1438 are one design, 1053 is a different design) all which the Repair Guide report as "Manufacturer Not Known". None of these have a click spring positioning pin hole. The first four round plates all have offset anchors with counterweights, the first clocks with this feature and not seen again until the J. Kaiser Universe narrow plate models in the 1950's. Most of the round plate clocks documented so far have banking pins for the anchors, seen in the plate drawings for 1009A as threaded holes at an angle to the eccentric nut. Plate 1053 has also been documented to have banking pins, and rectangular plates 1008A and 1029A have banking pins.

    One final note regarding the "Wrth" clocks is that quite a number of their movements (and complete clocks) were used by Bowler and Burdick, complete with the "Anniversary Trade Mark Registered" markings on the movement back plates or dials or both. Wrth is not mentioned in any reference found so far as a supplier to B&B, however we don't have any concrete info from B&B records as to who actually were their suppliers. All that is known right now is that we have documented movements believed to have been made by Huber and JUF, and have conclusive evidence that Hauck and Kienzle did supply movements. Now, we have strong evidence that Wrth also supplied B&B, with 13 examples documented out of a total now of 70 clocks in the database believed to have been made by Wrth.

    More research will be needed before we can give a completely certain answer that these were all made by Wrth, but as I mentioned above a preponderance of evidence now points to that conclusion.
    Last edited by John Hubby; 03-24-2009 at 02:09 AM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: MUN CHOR-WENG)

    Quote Originally Posted by MUN CHOR-WENG View Post
    Hi John,

    I do not know if the clock shown below has the same movement as the one featured in the advertisment as both of them appeared to be identical in all aspects looking from the front. The back plate matches with Plate 1603 . The number 11536 found on the base of pendulum matches with that found on the back plate. The suspension bracket is gimbal type ( No 14 ) and the anchor has adjustable pallets. The bridge for holding the front anchor pivot is movable.

    Mun C.W.
    Mun, in my opinion your clock matches all characteristics of what I think now are Wrth clocks, not just the front appearance. Specifically, your clock has:
    • Plate 1603 with characteristic click layout.
    • No suspension guard.
    • Adjustable pallets.
    • Pendulum No. 20 with matching serial number.
    • Gimbal suspension bracket No. 14 (DRGM 302860).
    • Removable bridge in front plate for anchor arbor.
    • Fancy double ogee design movement support plate.
    • Fancy base. I missed mentioning this characteristic in the long message above, but it's certainly true for the very large majority of these clocks.
    I didn't have this one in my database but it's there now, one of 70 and a rapidly growing number with these characteristics. Based on the serial number of your clock I would date it as 1907, being made not long after the introduction of the gimbal upper bracket No. 14 early that year.

    If anyone else has a clock with one of the backplates mentioned in my message above, please post here so we can add it to the database.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: John Hubby)

    Originally posted by John Hubby:

    There are two basic round plate designs (1009A, 1009AA, 1437, 1438 are one design, 1053 is a different design) all which the Repair Guide report as "Manufacturer Not Known". None of these have a click spring positioning pin hole. The first four round plates all have offset anchors with counterweights, the first clocks with this feature and not seen again until the J. Kaiser Universe narrow plate models in the 1950's...

    One final note regarding the "Wrth" clocks is that quite a number of their movements (and complete clocks) were used by Bowler and Burdick, complete with the "Anniversary Trade Mark Registered" markings on the movement back plates or dials or both. Wrth is not mentioned in any reference found so far as a supplier to B&B, however we don't have any concrete info from B&B records as to who actually were their suppliers. All that is known right now is that we have documented movements believed to have been made by Huber and JUF, and have conclusive evidence that Hauck and Kienzle did supply movements. Now, we have strong evidence that Wrth also supplied B&B, with 13 examples documented out of a total now of 70 clocks in the database believed to have been made by Wrth.

    If anyone else has a clock with one of the backplates mentioned in my message above, please post here so we can add it to the database.

    Hi John,

    The points raised in your post prompted me to take a closer look at a Bowler and Burdick presentation clock and I found many of the characteristcs you have listed. I post below a few pictures of this clock for your database.

    The round back plate is very simular to Plate 1009AA except for the pair of holes found at the top of the plate. The Repair Guide shows them as threaded but in the clock they are unthreaded. Not sure if there is a mistake in the Repair Guide plate listing.

    The clock was a presentation by The Bowler and Burdick Company and their employees to Mr and Mrs Camillo Taussig as shown in the inscription found on the top of the disc pendulum. The inscription shown below also dates the clock.

    PRESENTED BY: The Bowler and Burdick Co. and Employees

    TO: Mr and Mrs Camillo Taussig
    April 25th 1906




    Mun C.W.
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    Last edited by MUN CHOR-WENG; 03-25-2009 at 05:55 AM.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: MUN CHOR-WENG)

    Although more socio- than horo-, it's always interesting to know something about the names in inscriptions. Suspect that Mun has already checked in this case.

    But if not, a quick on-line search shows that Camillo Taussig was born in Hungary in about 1877, and died in Cleveland, Ohio, 1 November 1952. His wife Sadie (Koblitz) was born in about 1885 and was also resident in Cleveland. Assume that the clock was a wedding present.

    There's a pun in there somewhere about timely marriages.

    Regards,
    Zep

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: MUN CHOR-WENG)

    Quote Originally Posted by MUN CHOR-WENG View Post
    Hi John,

    The points raised in your post prompted me to take a closer look at a Bowler and Burdick presentation clock and I found many of the characteristcs you have listed. I post below a few pictures of this clock for your database.

    The round back plate is very simular to Plate 1009AA except for the pair of holes found at the top of the plate. The Repair Guide shows them as threaded but in the clock they are unthreaded. Not sure if there is a mistake in the Repair Guide plate listing.

    The clock was a presentation by The Bowler and Burdick Company and their employees to Mr and Mrs Camillo Taussig as shown in the inscription found on the top of the disc pendulum. The inscription shown below also dates the clock.

    PRESENTED BY: The Bowler and Burdick Co. and Employees

    TO: Mr and Mrs Camillo Taussig
    April 25th 1906


    Mun C.W.
    Mun, thanks for posting! I had your clock in my database but without the photos, so that fills in some blank spaces. And, thanks to Zep for posting the historical info regarding the couple to whom the clock was given. I would also presume this to have been a wedding gift.

    The 1906 inscription date is exactly where my data show the movement being made. I have another B&B clock recorded, just 117 digits later with serial number 7715 (Plate 1008A), that has an original B&B sale label pasted to the bottom with the date 18 June 1906 hand written in. These two clocks were likely to have both been at the B&B facility in 1906.

    Regarding the back plate detail for Plate 1009AA (and for 1009A, 1437, and 1438), the top two holes are incorrectly shown as being threaded. I have examined examples of 1009A and 1438, and those holes are not threaded on the actual clocks. I suspect an error by the draftsman.

    For info I've identified two more clocks for the database since my last posting, bringing the total now to 72, with 14 having B&B identification.
    Last edited by John Hubby; 06-25-2010 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Corrected Label Date and comments to match

  8. #38

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: John Hubby)

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hubby View Post
    DRGM 215537 was granted 16 December 1903 for the guide slots cut into the top of a pendulum disc, in which pins underneath the adjusting weights can slide. This prevents turning of the weights on the disc, and is found on pendulum No. 20 in the Repair Guide. This pendulum in turn is found (matching serial numbers) on most of the clocks I believe were made by Wrth after serial number 2900 made about the end of 1903 or early 1904. From a thorough search of clocks in my collection and business inventory there is no question pendulum No. 20 was the first with that feature. It was used later by others, notably for Huber-designed and patented pendulums made after 1910 that were used by GB, Kienzle, Badische, and of course Huber.
    The Louis Wille temperature compensating pendulum also has the guide slots feature as shown in the attached picture.

    I have also found two round plate movements that are similar to plate 1009AA that is not marked with "Anniversary Trade Mark Registered". It only have a serial number (13751 & 13890) at the 6 o'clock position and "Germany" at the 3 o'clock position. Both clocks are in 4 glass cases with "Tiffany" on the dial. Offset adjustable anchors with no counter-balance. The other point of interest is that both clocks use the #14 Gimbal suspension bracket. I will post more photos later.

    Vic
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: any400day)

    Quote Originally Posted by any400day View Post
    The Louis Wille temperature compensating pendulum also has the guide slots feature as shown in the attached picture.

    I have also found two round plate movements that are similar to plate 1009AA that is not marked with "Anniversary Trade Mark Registered". It only have a serial number (13751 & 13890) at the 6 o'clock position and "Germany" at the 3 o'clock position. Both clocks are in 4 glass cases with "Tiffany" on the dial. Offset adjustable anchors with no counter-balance. The other point of interest is that both clocks use the #14 Gimbal suspension bracket. I will post more photos later.

    Vic
    Vic, thanks for the info and photo of your Wille pendulum, and I'll certainly look forward to seeing photos of the two other clocks you mention.

    I'm not where I can check my "one only" Wille patent pendulum but will do so when I'm back home. Is your pendulum the one from clock with serial number 1174? Does it have a bottom cover with any info such as serial number or DRGM? If not, we won't know for sure if the pendulum and clock started life together, unless you have some other confirming information.

    Since the DRGM was granted to Wrth, and in December 1903 after the Wille patent was granted in September 1903 (or possibly earlier, the Sept. date is for the specification), I wonder whether your Wille pendulum was made after Dec. 1903 since it appears that Wrth was the maker of the clocks associated with DRP 144687? My data show two Wille pendulum clocks made in first half 1904, neither one belong to me, one has the bottom cover missing so no info if that one would have had the DRGM stamp. The other has a serial number per my records but I didn't ask the owner about the DRGM and no longer have contact with him to find out.

    Of the other clocks in the data with the Wille pendulum, only three have the bottom cover and all three have only the serial number but no DRGM, all three would have been made before December 1903 if my data is correct. Even then I don't know if these had the slots in the disc and no way to find out. More frustration in not knowing to ask at the time!!

  10. #40

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: John Hubby)

    John,
    The Wille pendulum is not from SN1174, it from SN2067. Pictures are attached.

    Both Willie pendulums have the guide slots but no covers.

    Vic
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: any400day)

    Pictures of the Tiffany clocks as promised.
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  12. #42
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    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: any400day)

    Vic, thanks for the great photos and congratulations on having these clocks.

    I have put the two Tiffany back plates in my database as Plate 1438*, with the asterisk referencing the different back stamping. Otherwise these plates are identical to Plate 1438. They are also physically identical to Plate 1009AA, but I've attempted to keep the B&B plates separate from others, thus chose 1438 as the closest match.

    I see there isn't any ID on the bottom of the pendulum. These are the only two clocks thus far in my data with this exact pendulum, others have larger diameter and thicker gallery discs (some much thicker), or are the B&B type Pend. No. 24.

    Regarding the slots in the Wille pendulum disc, I'm beginning to conclude that it's possible all the clocks I have now in my data were made after the DRGM for the slot was granted to Wrth. We know that Wrth started making 400-Day clocks in 1903, but we don't know exactly when. They appear to have made perhaps 20,000 clocks from startup in 1903 to some time around 1910, let's say seven years of operation or a little under 3,000 clocks per year.

    The lowest serial number recorded to date is No. 1041, so it's quite possible there are lower serial numbered clocks made before the DRGM was granted. Time will tell, of course, as we add more clocks to the data. Now I need to be sure and check all the Wille pendulums I come across to see if they have the guide slots or not.

    BTW, your clock No. 2076 wasn't previously in my data, thanks for providing the photos and data!

    Thanks once again for your help!!

  13. #43

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: John Hubby)

    Hi John,

    I've the same Louis Wille pendulum clock like Vic except with a slightly different base.
    SN 2149 which I believe you got it in your data base.
    The pendulum has the same slots and similar to Vic's clock.


  14. #44

    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: kepiting1sg)

    John,
    Here's another clock for your data-base. Louis Willie pendulum (with guide slots but no cover) in a 4 glass case. Backplate has "D.R.P. 144687" and SN "1632". Fixed anchor pallets and no adjustable bridge for anchor arbor.

    Vic
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  15. #45
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    Default Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907) (By: any400day)

    Vic, thanks very much for the photos and info. One anomoly with this clock is the absence of "Made in Germany" on the back plate. So far this is the only one of these so I've posted a note in my data indicating it as a variation on Plate 1049.

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